[#46383] Per A. Nermo rømte på ski fra Trysil til Sverige ca.1860-70, em. til USA ca.1893

[Gjest Trond Øivindsson Lunde]

Lindberget er i Elverum, så han var der før han kom til Sandbekklia

[Gjest Per Nermo]

Skal tro om Mathis Persen Sandbæklien (1786-1874) var født på Flisberget, der faren kom fra, eller på Kynnberget (framgarden), der moren Olia f.1761 kom fra, og der Mathis' far Per Mattissen Flisberget f.1756 ble bruker (når?) ? Døde forresten Per i 1836 eller 1837 ?

[Gjest Per Nermo]

(3:) Merknaden om Lars Martin (Louis) Nermo (f. 19 Jan 1873 i Ramsjö) i husförhör 1886-1892 for Ramsjö, Gävleborgs län handler om 'Duplett av flyttn(ing)' (til Canada ?). Det ser ut som at 'Sask'(atchewan) ('Shell Lake' ?) er nevnt, samt en dato '10/3 37' (?) (I så fall må det jo være påført my senere).Kan du ta en nærmere kikk på din 'original', Anne Lene ?

[Gjest Per Nermo]

(46): According to the 1900 Census in Johnson, Polk, Minnesota, the first wife Christine (from Sweden) of Pete (Per) P. Nermo arrived in the U.S. in 1892, while Pete came in (May) 1891.This contradicts the information (tradition ?) that Pete and Christine got married on the ship crossing the Atlantic.Their daughter Etel O(lea?) was born in June 1896, still according to the 1900 census. This would suggest that the couple married sometime between 1892 and 1895.Can the wedding registration perhaps be found in Polk, Minnesota or elsewhere in the U.S. in this periode ?

[Gjest Trond Øivindsson Lunde]

Da Mattis ble døpt var foreldrene i følge kirkeboka bosatt på Flisberget. Må derfor gå ut fra at han ble født der. Per døde 13.06.1837 og gravlagt 18.06. Han var da oppgitt å være sjøleier, 81 år og bosatt i Kynnberget

[Gjest Arnie P Nermo]

Welcome Back,At this point in time I have four main sources of information: 1) John Dahl son of Clara Nermo. 2) Alice Moberg (Nermo), last surviving child of Louis Nermo. 3) Paul Arne Nermo son of Ewin Nermo. 4) My Mother, Elizabeth Nermo (Auldrey).Today , John Dahl has confirmed that the second wife of Pete Pedersen Nermo was Christina Christiansen, of Wanke, USA. She and her parents immigrated with the Nermo family from Minnesota to Saskatchewan in 1905 where the Christiansen clan then had more children. He also observed that his grandfather Pete P.(b.March,1871) must have been born out of wedlock, as his mother Kajsa Lisa married in Nov.of 1872, a full 20 months later, (a fact that slipped past me). Also, Alice Moberg confirmed that the wife of Per A. Nermo (Kajsa Lisa) was a Byqvist and not the parenthesized (Nyquist), see # 23. Also, in comment #23 I passed on misinformation. John Nermo actually died and had no children. John Dahl and Alice Moberg and my mother refer to a sister of Pete/Louis/John that was named Martha. And yes!!! , she is supposed to have become a Luthern minister. Would this be rare??? I will ask Alice again for clarification as to whether this was in Sweden,USA, or in Canada. John Dahl ,from Alberta, holds the original bithh certificate for his father Pete Pedersen Nermo and 'not' Per A. Nermo, as stated in reference #46 (bummer). I will post it if I receive a reliable copy image. Also, John Dahl insists that the family was known as Pedersen, in the USA, but reverted back to the Nermo name when they came up to Canada. Nevertheless, USA census records in Minnesota list them as Nermo. Lastly, it seems fact and family history are still at odds, everyone here insists Pete met his first wife on the ship coming over. I will investigate further.... All the best to everyone, over there. Arnie P.

[Gjest Trond Øivindsson Lunde]

Husmannsenka Olea Olsdatter Nermo døde 27.10.1911. Hun var oppgitt å være født på Sønsthagen 22.05.1824: Lenke.Min tippoldemor var Oline (1856-99) som Mattis` datter nr. 2 i andre ekteskap. Olea var min ane nr. 43. Hun var født utenfor ekteskap.86. Ola Jonsson, Nyseter nordre, 1797-187287. Marte Olsdotter, Sønsthagen, 1790- ??. Hun var antakelig fra Halvor-Nes172 Jon Audensson, Nyseter nordre, 1762-1833173 Ragnhild Olsdotter, Sørby søndre, 1769-1857174 Ola Halvorsson, Halvor-Nes, 1753-1830175 Anne Jonsdotter, Rømoen nordre, 1757-1831

[Gjest Per Nermo]

Mange takk, Trond !Har noen peiling på hva som var grunnen til at Per Arnesen Nermo (f. i Trysil den 23 Jun 1843 som sønn født u.e. av Olea Olsdatter Tangen (Nysæter/Sønsthagen) fra Trysil og Arne Olsen Gropen fra Elverum) den 26 Feb 1866 (som 23-åring) valgte å flytte fra Trysil til Sverige, nærmere bestemt til (oppgitt flytteadresse:) Hudiksvall & Brettingberg, Ljusdahls sokn, Gäfleborgs län ?Drøye seks år senere, den 2 Nov 1872 giftet han seg i Borgsjö, Västernorrlands län (Medelpad) med Kajsa Lisa (Cathrina Elisabeth) Larsdotter Byqvist (26 Mai 1849 - Feb 1889) fra Borgsjö, etter at han et drøyt år før giftermålet hadde fått sønnen Per (f. 18 Mar 1871) med Kajsa. De bodde såvidt jeg har skjønt i grensetraktene mellom Medelpad og Hälsingland, hhv. Borgsjö og (fra januar 1889) Ramsjö.Hva bedrev han ellers (i Sverige ?) i perioden 1866-1871 ? Hogg tømmer ?Jeg kjenner etterhvert barna Per (Pete) 1871-1952/56, Lars Martin (Louis) 1873-c1960, Katarina 1875-1889, Jonas Alfred (John) 1884-1911 og Arne Valerius f/d 1889.Per A.'s barn Per, Lars og John ble med 'over there' rundt 1891-1893. I tillegg skal det ha vært med en datter Martha (f. ca. 1872 ?), som muligens endte opp som Luthersk prest (!?) i USA. Kjenner noen til hennes fødsel eller dåp, som altså antakelig må ha funnet sted i Borgsjö, Västernorrlands län (Medelpad) ? (Jeg har forresten foreløpig ikke funnet noen av dem i emigrasjonslistene/skisplistene).Før han emigrerte rakk han altså (antakelig) å sone en straffarbeidsdom på 10 måneder (dømt i Ljusdals tingslags heradsrett den 25/11-1889) for 'formedelst innbrudd å ha forøvet tyveri'.Håper noen har opplysninger som kan bidra til å kaste lys over Per Arneson Nermo sitt noe brokete liv i Trysil og Sverige i perioden 1865-1893.

[Gjest Per Nermo]

(80:) Kjennes datoene for Per Mattissen Flisberget (1756-1837) sine giftermål med 1) (rundt 1785) Olia Olsdatter Kynnberget f.1761 og 2) (rundt 1791) Helene Olsdatter f.ca.1771 ?

[Gjest Trond Øivindsson Lunde]

http://www.fennia.nu/ Artikler. Flisberget i Sørskogbygda - ei 300 år gammal historie

[Gjest Per Nermo]

Mange takk igjen, Trond ! (Jeg så ikke i første omgang at 'hele' etterslekta lå der !).Det ser ut til at 'Nermo Søndre' ble skilt ut (fra Nermo) før 1900, da Marthe Mathiasd. Nermo og Martin Bergersen sitt eldste barn Johanne f.1871 bor der med ektemann Petter Pettersen Mobæk og (foreløpig) 2 sønner. Johanne's to yngre søsken Mathea 1874 og Olaus 1877 bor i 1900 hos moren (Marthe, enke) på Nermo. Olaus var da g.m. Anne Mathea Olsdatter fra Nord-Fron. Var det Olaus (skogsarbeider i 1900) som tok over Nermo, tro ?

[Gjest Per Nermo]

Det ser ut til å være umulig (i alle fall for meg) å finne Per A. Nermo f. 1843 i Trysil i FT 1865. Kan han være i Sverige allerede, mon tro ?Hans 5 halvsøsken (fra moren Olia Olsdatter's ekteskap (1846) med Mathis Persen f.1786 i Flisberget, Elverum, er født i tidsrommet 1846-1861, og alle unntatt den yngste, Sofie, er ute av redet (som da er Nermo i Trysil) i 1865, enten som fosterbarn (Oline f.1856), eller som tjenestefolk (Olea f.1843, Mathis/Mattes f.1850 og Marte f.1846). Tidlig krøkes ... ! Det var kanskje ikke flust på Nermo i de dager ...(82/Trond:) Jeg kan ikke se annet enn at din tippoldemor Oline Mathisdatter (1856-1899) var Mattis' datter nr. 3 i dette (andre) ekteskapet, ikke nr. 2 ! (Hun har både Marte og Olea før seg i løypa ...).Men, altså, deres eldre halvbror Per ikke å finne. Kan noen andre ?

[Gjest Per Nermo]

Per A. Nermo fungte med sin mor og hennes mann Mattis Persen da disse flyttet til 'Trondheims Stift eller Nordlandene' den 1 juli 1852, men de var tydeligvis tilbake i Sandbekklia i Trysil før 1855, da Mattis skal ha bygget småbruket Nermo. Fra han kom til Trysil (som fraskilt rundt 1846 ?) bodde han i Sandbekklia fram til 1855, altså avbrutt av oppholdet (2-3 år ?) nordpå. Mattis' tre yngste barn er da antakelig født i Sandbekklia, og Per A. (f.1843) vokste opp der sammen med sine halvsøsken.Jeg har forresten nå fått vite at Per A. Nermo er registrert innflyttet til Borgsjö (Grundsjön) i 1870, og at Kajsa Lisa der fikk datteren Martha (Märtha) Olivia i Okt 1869 i tillegg til sønnen Per i Mars 1871 før de endelig giftet 2 Nov 1872. Märtha flyttet etter sin far og søsken til Canada først i 1912, etter å ha vært gift i 24 år.Hun reiste med båt fra Göteborg med sin yngste datter Anna Martina (10 år) den 22 Mars 1912, og det er vel antakelig der de andre i familien også har reist fra (1891-1893). Ektemannen Anders Olsson (g. 1888) fulgte ikke med, og er heller ikke nevnt i manntallet år 1900. Mer om dette senere ...

[Gjest Arnie P Nermo]

Goddag Alle, I spoke to John Dahl today. He is very excited about all your research. He asks ' Why Pete Pedersen's original birth certificate from Sweden would name him as Peder Per Pete Pedersen.....and not Nermo?Which record shows that Per A. Nermo was accepted as an emigrant to Sweden on Feb. 26, 1866, at the age of (23) ?.... I ask because you may notice that it is in winter & there is the persistent family story that he fled Norway on skis in the middle of winter. What crime did he commit in Norway... kill an elk....rob a man...kill a man? Can we check the Trysil records of that time to see if there was a warrant out for his arrest? Lastly, Was it common for men and women of that era to have children out of wedlock? Was it a social taboo, or socially acceptable at that time for Norway / Sweden.?Farvel Alle, Arnie P. Nermo

[Gjest Chris Bingefors]

Per Nermo f 1871) var tillbaka i Sverige 1912, kanske för att hämta systern Märta. Han reste tillbaka till Portland, Maine 22 mars 1912,tillsammans med henne (det står att hon ska till Prince Albert i Canada). Han står som hemmahörande i Canada.Eftersom Per Arnesen Nermo inte fick gifta sig 1870 så blev sonen Per född utanför äktenskapet. Det står i husförhöret att han inte kunde visa att han var fri att gifta sig, inga uppgifter fanns mellan 1866 och 1870. Troligen tog detta tid att reda ut, därför föddes sonen innan giftermålet.

[Gjest Chris Bingefors]

For our American/Canadian readers:I believe that Per Arnesen Nermo could not marry in 1870. He was back at the farm in Borgsjö with Kajsa Lisa´s family in 1870 but the church book says that he could not prove that he was free to marry, no information on him from 1866 to 1870. That usually means that he moved around without registering or getting a certificate from the vicar. It must have taken some time to entangle this issue. With some luck there may still be papers in the archives.

[Gjest Chris Bingefors]

This is the original letter from Kajsa Lisa´s father allowing her to marry Per Arnesen Nermo. Per had a certificate from the vicar in the parish stating that he was free to marry. Evidently some investigation had been done.

[Gjest Chris Bingefors]

Arnie Nermo,We have not yet found a record showing Per´s registration in a Swedish parish. He may well have decided not to bother, that is why he later cannot prove his freedom to marry. Has anybody searched the Trysil records to see if he fathered another child before leaving? That was a common reason to disappear, before the girl´s father appeared with a shotgun. To have children out of wedlock was not socially acceptable, still it was common. In Sweden, the parents had legal right to remain anonymous (in the countryside this mostly applied to the father) but I believe that the suspected father is more often named in Norwegian records.

[Gjest Chris Bingefors]

Per A Nermo leaves Trondheim on 16th May 1893 on the Cunard liner Juno (#76661), it is actually a feeder ship owned by the Wilson line for transports to Hull. He is registered as living in Sweden and unmarried, 48 years old.Peter P Nermo and sister Martha Olson with daughter arrive in Portland, Maine on s/s Ascania from Southampton 7 April 1912.

[Gjest Chris Bingefors]

Märta´s husband Anders Olsson (b 28 oct 1862) emigrated 6 May 1912 to Canada from Ramsjö with his son Olof Gunnar Halfdan Andersson b 6 jan 1890.

[Gjest Chris Bingefors]

Märta´s children Ida Kristina Andersson b 30 May 1896 and Oskar Hilding b 8 aug 1888 emigrate to Canada 1st July 1912.

[Gjest Finn Einar Graff]

I forhold til oppsummeringen Per Nermo gir i innleggene 87 og 88, tror jeg at det kan være greit å oppsummere hva som står i Trysilboka og i tillegg hva man kan lese ut av kirkeboka for denne perioden om Mathis og Olia's barn: Marthe, f. 11.9.1846, Mathis, f. 10.4.1850, Olea, f. 18.10.1853, Oline, f. 3.9.1856, Sofie, f. 18.7.1861.De to første barna ser ut til å være født mens de bodde i Sandbæklien. De gifter seg 21.9.1851. Da Oline og Sofie blir født bor de på Nermo. Olea blir døpt 11.6.1854 og da blir etternavnet Øyen brukt på dem. Jeg tolker det derfor slik at etter at de kom tilbake fra 'Nordlandene' flyttet de ikke tilbake til Sandbæklien, men til Øien i nabodalføret Elvdalen helt opp mot grensa til Engerdal. Faddere til Olea kommer fra nabogårdene der. Disse halvsøsknene til Per Arnesen Nermo har mange etterkommere i Trysil.

[Gjest Arnie P. Nermo]

According to my mother Per. A. Nermo is rumoured to have had other children in Norway/ Sweden, other than the ones with Kalsa Lisa Byqvist.

[Gjest Per Nermo]

(89/Arnie:) First, the reason that the birth certificate of Per Pe(de)rsen (Nermo) born 18 Mar 1871 does not identify him as a 'Nermo' was probably that his father Per A. Nermo (born 1843) had a vey short lasting connection only to the small Nermo farm. Per A.'s mother Olea (born 1824) did NOT live at Nermo when she gave birth to him on Jun 23rd 1843. (She had him by the way outside wedlock (with Arne Olsen Gropa/Gropen from Elverum), and was living with her parents at Sønsthagen in Trysil at the time).It was first in appr. 1855, after she had been married to (the divorced) Mathis Persen Sandbæklien since Sep 21st 1851 (NOT 1846 !), that the couple moved to Nermo. Olea's first two children with Mathis thus were also born outside wedlock, as was in fact Olea herself as well !).In the period from appr. 1846 to 1855 Mathis and Olea lived in various places, first allegedly at Sandbekklia (Sandbæklien) in Trysil, where the two first babies were born (1846 and 1850). Then they went north to Trøndelag or Nordland in 1852, and when they returned (apparently in 1853-1854), they lived at Øyen in the neighbouring valley Elvdalen close to Engerdal. Their 3rd child Olea was probably born there, being Olea's first child within wedlock.Olea (born 1824)'s illegitimate son Per Arnesen (born 1843) of course lived with his mother, and from appr. 1845/46 with her husband Mathis at Sandbekklia in Trysil until 1852 when they went temporarily north and came back (to Øyen in Elvdalen) in 1853/1853, and in 1855 appr. they moved to Nermo, when Per A. was 12 years old. Then he probably lived there with his younger half siblings, his mother and her husband for a short period of time, probably only until appr. 1858-1859, as young boys (AND girls !) of his 'class' at the time tended to leave home very early, to work e.g. as a farm hand. In 1866 he went to Sweden. So, as can be deduced from above, his life on Nermo lasted only appr. 4-5 years, so he probably didn't at the time user 'Nermo' as a last name.At this time, it had not yet became common in rural Norway to use 'last names', only officials, priests, merchants in urban areas and other 'high up' people used to, a class to which Per A. certainly did not belong. Instead one used 'patronymicons' denoting who were your father, so Per A.'s son Per born in 1871 thus would be 'Per Pe(de)rsen' in the birth certificate (in Borgsjö, Sweden) ( = 'Per, son of Per/Peder' ).So it's quite believable that Mr John Dahl is right when he insists Per/Peder/Pete used 'Pedersen' when he first came to th U.S., but later on decided to use 'Nermo'. As can be seen, he is listed as 'Nermo' in the 1900 census in Johnson, Polk, Minnesota.By the way, Per A. was listed as an emigrant from Trysil in 1866, but as an immigrant to Sweden first in 1970. In the intermediate time he is supposed to have travelled and worked in Sweden (as a timberman/logger ?) without papers. More about this periode of his life will come later (he surely had a coulourful and exiting life ... ! ).That having children out of wedlock was common in certain social classes and districts should become evident from what's is referred above. Of whether this was a social taboo or not, I'm not quite sure, but, of course, the church condemned it, and the ministers and vicars were eager to make a note indicating the 'sad' fact in the church book. However, you seem to have been able to 'save you skin' in the eyes of God (or the Church ?) if marrying 'in time' before the child was born. Some years earlier (100 years ?), couples having had sexual intercourse outside marriage was given a so called 'leiermål'/leyermaal' punishment, usually a fine or other, by the government officials.

[Gjest Per Nermo]

By the way, so far it has surfaced no information on what would be the reason for Per A. to leave Trysil for Sweden in mid winter 1866. Maybe he was just searching for a better life elsewhere (as did many in Norway at the time, and having all the best rasons to !), as he still obviously did (successfully ?) in 1893 when he went to America.The tradition describing illegal elk hunting and/or killing a person on a train can (in my opinion) easily be a result of creative story telling, possibly mixed with information regarding his conviction and sentence for theft and burglary in Sweden in 1889.He went back to Trysil (once ?) in 1870 (immediately before he married), as can be seen in the emigrant lists, where it's noted that he left in 1866 and that his destination is Bjuråker parish, Sweden. If there existed a warrent for his arrest at the time for crimes in 1866 or earlier, he would most certainly have been captured and punished in Trysil in 1870.