foreldre av/parents of Ole Larsen Sundby (1815-1896) of Nannestad

[Tybring Hemphill]

Heidi,

 

Thanks for all of the information. I agree absolutely with your points. I have checked the church register from the start of 1808 (death of Anne Nilsdater - potential first wife) to the birth of Olia in 1810 and find no marriage of Lars Olsen to Anne Christensdatter. Therefore they must have married somewhere else. I thought for a moment that perhaps they did not marry, but then noticed that there were many unwed mothers listed as "uaegte" while Lars and Anne are both mentioned suggesting clearly that they were married. I am confused as to why Ole Larsen is shown leaving Nannestad in 1836 planning to move to Christiania to join the artillery. I think this is a different person than our Ole Larsen. First he is from Nordbye, which we have never heard of associated with the family. More importantly, the age is wrong. He is 23 1/4 in October 1836, meaning he is born in 1813, not 1815. Besides, he had already left Nannestad in 1822 with his parents for Aker, so why would the family return? Also, Ole is a skraedermester by 1865 and I presume that one would apprentice for such work fairly young, not so much after joining the military. This matter of his occupation makes me more interested in the family you found in the 1801 census. I note that the Flatner family had another son, brother to Lars , named Hans, who was also a skraedder (perhaps father to this Ole Hansen?). Ole Hansen Sundby also shows in the 1865 census as a skraedder living in Rødenaes, born in Høland - I think this is the same person listed twice). Interestingly in the 1865 census, there are not many named Sundby, but one named Ole Hansen Sundby, living in Tønsberg, is a skraeddermester and was born in Ullensaker, very near Nannestad. It is hard not to think that this occupation then, ran in the family. If so, we would be very lucky as there are three generations shown together in 1801, which is an unusual bonus. Also, as you probably have already though, the first child of Lars Olsen and Anne Christensdatter was named Christopher - but have not been able to find him again.

 

What do you think?

http://www.digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&a=b&filnamn=f60120

http://www.digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&a=b&filnamn=f60705

[Mette Fausko]

Tybring.

 

Here are Lars Olsen's first wife's death.

http://www.digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=1&filnamn=gr02381792&gardpostnr=1181&personpostnr=1280#nedre

When it comes to all this moving, it was not unusual. Lars was a cottager on different farms, he was not the owner of any of these farms we have "visited".

Cottager were working people who lived in the small farms , away of the manor, they had to pay rent and t they had duties to the owner of the farm. When it stands,eie/eje after a farm name, it means a cottager farm.The moving day was in April and October.Cottager could be dismissed almost without reason, and then they had to move somewhere else where they were cud get a contract. In 1865, Norway had 65,000 cottager.

It is not unlikely that they moved back to Nannestad. At Ole's wedding is the father typed as Lars Olsen Sundby. About Christopher, maybe this is him, who is registered with the Tax Cadastre Nannestad 1838 on Sundby.

http://www.digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=9&filnamn=matrnann&gardpostnr=363&personpostnr=363#nedre

Mvh.Mette

[Tybring Hemphill]

Hi Mette. So you are convinced that Anne Nielsdatter is the first wife of Lars Olsen who later marries Anne Christensdatter? I suppose that is made more likely now that I see that theywere living atLimset when she died in 1808 and then Lars Olsen was of Limset when his daughter Olia was born in 1810. One or the other of those two must be the right Lars Olsen, but in either case, the one who is not has many coincidences either in terms of location or occupation. If we can find the wedding to Anne Christensdatter we could see if he was a widower or a bachelor/ungkarl and that would make it clear.

 

Thank you for the explanation about the cottagers. Is it likely that Niels Larsen, the son of Lars Olsen and Ane Nielsdatter would not have moved with the family in 1822 when they left Nanestad. He was born in 1804 and would have been 18 in 1822. If he was the son of my Lars Olsen should he not have come along? I guess it is possible we just do not know of his death, or perhaps he was old enough to be on his own.

 

I see Lars and Anne Nielsdatter had a son Ole Larsen (1806-1809). Was it not common to rename the next child born with the same name as that who died? In the case of my Lars Olsen, though his first son was Christopher and only then did he go to Ole. Is this relevant?

 

How difficult was it to become a tailor back then do you think. I just wonder which of location or occupation are the better indicator?

 

Tybring

[Tybring Hemphill]

I wonder if there may be more useful information in the engagement notice of Ole Larsen Sundby(e) than I have been able to understand. If anyone can decipher the writing that would be very helpful

 

http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=7375&idx_id=7375&uid=ny&idx_side=-59

 

Heidi, there is an index for Hurdal marriages which I have checked with no sign of Lars Olsen. I'm not quite sure where else to look. Aker? Does anyone have the Nannestad Bygdebok as suggested by Heidi in her earlier post in order to try to trace the Lars Olsen (aged 25 in 1801) who lives in Flatner to see what becomes of him? I suppose he may be a bit young for our man, but it is certainly very close.

[Karl Johnny Sommer]

Hi Tybring - I have applied for Lars Olsen and Anne Christensdatter in 1801 census for the whole of Akershus,

and Aker in Oslo,and there are several that fit into the birth between 1771 - 1776 we must not let ourselvs

completely to the plase Nannestad.The are small distances between kommunene.

Regards Johnny

[Mette Fausko]

Tybring

I have added the question about what's in the church register for the ceremony in 1840 in "Deciphering the scanned sources"

To be sure it would be nice if we could find the probate court certificate for Lars Olsen Sundbu-owned. Where will all the heirs to be recorded, as they did when Petronella died. I'm going to the library tomorrow to see if I find something about him, under Flatner that Heidi wrote.

 

Here you can read about crafts in Norway

Arts and crafts in the pre-industrial Trøndelag

Belonging to the Crafts and mining

"Huus and Kunstfliden staaer not anything aloud Step in the District, but seems that do progressive and bringeth it defecate to all and sundry needs." To summarize the Governor in South Trondheim Amt situation in 1855. He described a pre-industrial Trøndelag where the "common people needs" was covered by local or regional production.

 

 

A pre-industrial Trøndelag

Most farmers were more or less independent with common carpentry and forging. The women on the farms and cotters spun, dyed yarn, woven and sewed clothes for the household. Husmannskonene performed often a lot of duty work at the spinning wheel and loom. About self-sufficiency rate was high, were still a number of handicraft products purchased. The housing was skilled carpenters hired, fine clothes were sewn by tailors or seamstresses. Shoemakers made shoes. The craftsmen were often tenants. They were happy with the craft when they were not compulsory labor on farms.

 

Local specialties

Each village had its shoemakers, carpenters, tailors and blacksmiths. In addition, local specialties. The governor said in his report redskapsmakere in Strinda, gunsmiths and watchmakers in Orkdalen and Gauldalen, blade smiths in Meldal and wood carvers in Oppdal and runs left. In ren parish was made carriages, wheels and sleds. These goods were often sold out of the village. They were sold at martnaene or in Trondheim. A lot went out to the coast. Fisheries Districts were in fact far from self-sufficient in manufactured goods. From Snåsa, Grong and Overhalla were sold cloth and linen to northern Norway. While the population in the interior could use winter evenings to run arts and crafts drove the coastal people, often with fishing or mending of gear.

 

The craft is under pressure

In the next few decades were a lot of skill under pressure. Axes and tools from the new iron industry was far better than the home-forged. Factory woven and printed cotton cloth became more and more prevalent. In Meldal troubled presidency himself in 1866 that the local weaving declined because people either bought cotton yarn and cotton cloth. Manufacture of clothing was in fact "working class's main industry." A little later won the shoe stores with their cheap mass production. Despite all this, the number of rural artisans. In line with the modernization of agriculture became more and more products purchased rather than made at home on the farms. It gave rise to increased trade, increased factory production - and more local crafts.

 

From Trøndelag History, Volume 3: The village is global 1850-2005, p. 92, 94

Mvh.Mette

[Heidi C. Huitfeldt]

Hi again Tybring,

I have searched through a lot of records trying to find the marriage(s) of Lars Olsen and Anne Nilsdatter and/or Anne Christensdatter. The strange thing is that I can’t find any of them, not the marriages nor the christening of the child Ouen (Auen/Even) to Lars Olsen and Anne Nilsdatter.

 

(I have made national searches, and search the church records for Nannestad both manually (the originals) and with cross-searches in the IGI batches (C and M batches 428041, 428042, 428043) on FamlilySearch. ) I suspect that the information is to be found somewhere where the records are missing. Eidsvold could be the a such place, its close and has a lot of pre -1860 records missing (lost in fire).

 

Eidsvoll could be a place to find work (ie mining and timber industry) as well as Hurdal, Ullensaker, maybe Skedsmo, Gjerdrum and Sørum, and of course Aker and Christiania.

 

There are two things that drew my attention to Eidsvoll; the name Ouen, and that there are a couple of candidates for Anne Christensdatter there in the 1801-cencus http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=42&filnamn=f1801&gardpostnr=7428&personpostnr=100656&merk=100656#ovre

 

If you search the 1801 census for the name Ouen (*uen or *uens* ) you will see that this is not a common name in Nannestad or in the Romerike area at all. But it appears in Eidsvoll.

 

It was tradition to name the children after relatives, and that Ouen is the first son indicates that there should be an older Ouen somewhere who the child is named after. I have not found any Ouen (except the one to Lars Olsen/Anne Nilsdatter) in the bygdebok.I have aso thought that he might be Lars Olsens stephson, and registered at christening with another father.

 

Anyway, what I think is that we should try a different approach to this, so I looked at the sponsors at the christenings to find out who they where. With the combination of the christenings, the 1801 census and the Bygdebok, I think I found something of interest.

 

First; In my last posting there was no linked information to the child Inger Marie, 3 in 1801. But here she is, 1798 INGEBORG Maria http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20061106010189.jpg with sponsors from Breen and Laumb.

 

Most of the sponsors of Lars Olsens children are found on these farms and they are land-owing farmers, or crofters with family relations to the owing farmer, not crofters in the regular sense of the word (poor farmers on close-to-slavery contracts, which it was a lot more of about 50 years later).

 

Breen http://www.digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=1&filnamn=f18010238&gardpostnr=31&merk=31#ovre

 

Laumb http://www.digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=3&filnamn=f18010238&gardpostnr=32&merk=32#ovre

 

Sundby http://www.digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=8&filnamn=f18010238&gardpostnr=116&merk=116#ovre

 

Limset http://www.digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=11&filnamn=f18010238&gardpostnr=117&merk=117#ovre

 

Assuming that the Lars Olsen that married Anne N is the same as married Anne C, the first trace of him would be the christening of child Ingeborg Maria. He is listed as a servant at Laumb at the time, and is mentioned under “Crofters and others” in the bygdebok: “Servant Lars Olsen married to Anne Nilsdatter had a daughter Ingeborg Maria in 1798.” Servant could mean farmhand.

 

In the records you will se that the farm names are mentioned in two ways, either as ie Sundby, or Sundbyeiet. In this time, and in general, the owing farmers would use the term Sundby as their place of living, and the crofters or others that lived on the estate would give place of living Sundbyeiet which literary means Sundby-estate. This was a matter of social standing. And the crofters and workers who added farm names as their family names in general did this while moving out of the parish, like your Ole Larsen Sundby.

 

I looked for the sponsors amongst the land owing farmers on the different estates, and under Breen this is mentioned:

 

“.. Halvor Jacobsen got the deed on allodium rights from Lars Olsen in 1800 for 100dlr.”

 

Halvor Jacobsen Breen (died early 1801) was married to Mari Olsdatter from Breen, daughter of Ole Kristoffersen (Christophersen) Breen, son of Kristoffer Nilsen Breen (but from Våler), son of Nils Våler. A Erik Olsen also lives on Breen in 1801, and at Breen-estate (Breenstua) lived Anne Olsdatter from Breen (married to Jacob Trondsen). See link to Breen above.

 

Ole Christoffersen Laumb was the son of Kristoffer Embretsen Laumb from Våler in Nannestad (main parish) and Ragnhild Olsdatter. Embret Våler was the brother of Nils Våler, so, Ole Kristoffersen Laumb was the cousin of Ole Kristoffersen Breen and Anne Kristoffersdatter Breen, who was married to Ola Eriksen Sundbyand lived on Sundby. See links to Laumb and Sundby above.

 

Look at these names in comparison to the sponsors!

 

There is still a few connections to check, but my point is that you should take a closer look at Lars Olsen born on Breen in 1775, son of Ole Kristoffersen Breen. Your Lars Olsen dos not seem to have been a regular farming crofter, more a worker of some kind. If he was the Lars Olsen with allodium rights in Breen, which he sold as he had older brothers/brother-in-laws, that could explain his social standing amongst the owing farmers that is his children’s sponsors. And there were usually family that were sponsors.

 

Here is a link to Familisearch (not the most accurate source, but a good “dip-stick” to the records, always check against original!) It shows children born to Ole Kristoffersen Breen. https://www.familysearch.org/search/records#count=20&query=%2Bfather_surname%3A%22christophersen+breen%22~+%2Bbatch_number%3Ac428042+%2Bfather_givenname%3Aole~+

 

I would like to send you all that is it written about Breen, Laumb and these people but it is a lot to retype and translate.. Do you read Norwegian? Then I could scan the pages. -I could translate, but then you have to give me a few days..

 

(If you don’t want to give your emailadress in the forum, an option could be to look my name up on facebook and drop me a message there)

 

I follow you train of thought in regards to tailors and occupations that run in families, that’s how I noticed Lars Olsen Flatner and his brother. But after reading the above in the bygdebok and looking closer at the sponsors, it kind of fell by the wayside.. :) ☺

[Heidi C. Huitfeldt]

Forgot to add this link:

 

1775 Christening of Lars Olsen, son of Ole Christophersen Breen http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=7663&idx_id=7663&uid=ny&idx_side=-67

 

(see lower right side)

[Tybring Hemphill]

Hello Heidi,

 

You have jumped in with both feet as we say in English, meaning you have committed yourself with a lot of work. I thank you you for your great effort. There is some old family story about the father of Lars Olsen (whoever that may turn out to be) having been the bastard son of some Swedish nobleman, but I do not especially believe it. Those sorts of stories were all too often invented in families. I think the truth will be much more ordinary if we can find it

 

There are some things though that just do not seem to fit with any of the information we have. Lars Olsen when leaving Nannestad with his wife Anne and son Ole reports that he is 50 in 1822, so born circa 1772. But the Lars Olsen who is married to Anne Nielsdatter appears to have been 34 in the 1801 census, so therefore born circa 1767. Then the Lars Olsen who is the son of Ole Christophersen Breen is born in 1775 so neither of these fits closely. Of course at the time, people did not keep such good track of their ages, so there could be a mistake, but it seems unlikely. Also Lars married to Anne Nielsdatter is a full 8 years older than the son of Ole Christophersen Breen so they don't look like the same person.

 

I like your idea of looking at the sponsors, but think we should concentrate on those who sponsored the children of Lars Olsen And Anne Christensdatter since we know for sure that they are the parents of my Ole Larsen Sundby, whereas we still are not sure that Lars Olsen who marrried Anne Nielsdatter is the same person.

 

So here are the sponsors of the children as I see them:

 

1) Olia Larsdatter baptized May 6, 1810

Father: Lars Olsen of Limseth E.

Mother: Anne Christensdatter

Sponsors:

Kari Larsdater of Grina

Cathrine Christophersdatter of Steensgaard

Anders Gundersen of Steensgaard

Lars Olsen of Steensgaard

Johannes Johannesen of Praestegaaden

 

2) Christopher Larsen baptized May 18, 1812

Father: Lars Olsen of Limseth Stuen

Mother: Anne Christensdatter

Sponsors:

Marthe Johnsdatter of Steensgaard

Anne Cathrine Christophersdatter of Limseth

Peder Pettersen of Limseth

Anders Gundersen of Steensgaard

Ole Larsen of Sundbye

 

3) Ole Larsen baptized July 23, 1815

Father: Lars Olsen Sundbye

Mother: Anne Christensdatter

Sponsors:

Elie Abrahamsdatter of Braaten

Kirstine Larsdatter of Sundbye

Ole Olsen (something illegible)

Anders Gundersen of Steensgaard

Hans Andersen of Limseth

 

So it seems that there is nothing too consistent in terms of the sponsors other than Anders Gundersen of Steensgaard. It would be interesting to check him in the bygdebok as he must be a relative or very best friend of Lars Olsen. I see one with this name in the 1801 census of Eidsvoll, but none in Nannestad or Hurdal.

 

http://www.digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=22&filnamn=f18010237&gardpostnr=46&personpostnr=1638&merk=1638#ovre

 

Another Anders Gundersen appears i Urschoug:

 

http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=22&filnamn=f1801&gardpostnr=6681&personpostnr=81942&merk=81942#ovre

 

And finally in Naess:

 

 

http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=23&filnamn=f1801&gardpostnr=7241&personpostnr=95564&merk=95564#ovre

 

 

(Anne) Cathrine Christophersdatter may be the same person appearing twice as a sponsor, but having moved from Steensgaard to Limseth. I don't know if Braaten is a place nearby, but the sponsor from there at least has an unusual name. Ah, now I see it, perhaps, north east of Sundby, in Eidsvoll,

 

But then, when you look at the baptism of the child Niels, son of Lars Olsen and Anne Nielsdatter in 1804, when living at Limset, we see again this Anders Gundersen Steensgaard and also a Lars Olsen Steensgaard, both of whom (or at least people with the same name living at the same place)were sponsors at Lars Olsen and Anne Christensdatter's daughter Olia's baptism 6 years later in 1810 also in Limset. Finally, there is a Marthe Johnsdatter Steensgaard as a sponsor both at the birth of the child Ole Larsen from Limset in 1806 and also 6 years later at the birth of Christopher Larsen from Limset in 1812. Possibilities for this Marthe Johnsdatter from the 1801 census are the following:

 

1) who is married to an Ole Olsen who could be a brother to Lars Olsen http://www.digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=53&filnamn=f18010239&gardpostnr=76&personpostnr=2070&merk=2070#ovre

 

2) who is a servant in the home of Abraham Lerche who has a daughter named Else Abrahamsdatter

 

 

http://www.digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=62&filnamn=f18010239&gardpostnr=42&personpostnr=1066&merk=1066#ovre

 

Either the two Lars Olsens must be the same person and there is a mistake in his age in one of the records, or there was a coincidence that these two people had the same friends/family. I suppose there is one other possibility which is that they are indeed different people, but related - cousins perhaps.

 

Yes, the Anne Christensdater of Eidsvoll could well be the right one, but it is only a guess that we cannot confirm. I do see that there is a christopher Olsen living on the same farm who is of the right age to be a brother to Lars Olsen and namesake for his first son with Anne Christensdatter and could explain how Lars would meet a woman from Eidsvoll. But again, this is just speculation.

 

 

My address is murrhemp(at)telus.net. I can read Norwegian passably well so I would be happy to receive scans and save you any unnecessary work.

 

 

 

I agree as well with the idea of looking at the names chosen. Ole Larsen Sundby had interesting and unusual names for his children. In addition to those listed in the 1865 census, there was also his eldest son (my ancestor) August Leonhard.

 

Just a moment, I think I have found a record of the death of Lars Olsen. Unfortunately, I cannot understand it fully, but there is a mention of Lars Olsen, the year 1827, that he had a 12 year old son named Ole (which fits)and it appears that Anders Gundersen Steensgaard is a creditor. However, it also mentioned a bunch of other possible children that I do not know. Hmmm..... Perhaps I was too hasty in saying I had found it. What do you think?

 

 

http://www.disnorge.no/slektsforum/viewtopic.php?t=72688

 

Looking forward to your comments.

 

Tybring

[Karl Johnny Sommer]

Hi Tybring - Here is another candidate for Anne Christensdatter: Anne Christensdatter 24 years old,lives 1801 om the farm Wardrum in Eidsvold.Parents:Christen Erichsen 50 years old and Goro Johannesdatter 44 years old.Anne was the oldest of six children.Eidsvold has lost much of their register,If not it is possible that we then had found the wedding to Lars and Anne.Maybe there is someone who has acces to the local history of this district?

Faddere with Olias baptism 1810: Anders Gundersen and Johannes Johannesen.We find on the Urschoug prestegård i 1801 Anders Gundersen Tjenestedreng(servant)32 years old and Johannes Johannesen Hyrdedreng(Sheperd)12 years old.

My English is not so good,I hope you understand . Mvh Johnny

[Tybring Hemphill]

Hi Johnny. Thanks for the further observations. This is a tough nut to crack (meaning, this is a difficult problem). I imagine you are right about the marriage having been in Eidsvold and that is why we cannot find the wedding of Lars Olsen and Anne Christensdatter. But it could also be in Aker or any surrounding community in which we have not yet looked.

 

I tried to find the Skifte that was referred to in the DIS post. I think I found it, but unfortunately, I am not so sure it deals with Anders Gundersen of Steensgard. Rather it looks to me like Anders Gulbrandsen of Steensgaard.

 

Here are the two links together - however, I have not found all of the pages referred to in the post and don't see the reference to the son Ole aged 12.

 

http://www.disnorge.no/slektsforum/viewtopic.php?t=72688

http://arkivverket.no/URN:sk_read/25608/53/?size=full&mode=1

 

Tybring

[Heidi C. Huitfeldt]

I had a look at the sponsors of Lars Olsens and Anne Christensdatter children. I'm just "dropping off" my notes here, hoping others have something to add. So far there are no answers to who Lars and Anne was, but it seems less lightly that the Lars Olsen that married Anne Nilsdatter is the same that married Anne Christensdatter. The sponsors here are other people than the ones sponsoring Lars and Anne N.'s children. Some of them living on the same estates, and possibly related, but somehow I get the feeling there is a (slight) social difference.

 

The Anne Gundersen Steensgaard and Anne Cathrine Christoffersdatter must have had individual relations to Lars and Anne C. as they both appear as sponsors years before they are married to each other.

 

 

1) Olia May 6, 1810

Kari Larsdatter of Grina (Grani) ?

 

Cathrine Christophersdatter of Steensgaard gm Anders Gundersen Steensgaard 1820 Anders Gundersen Stennsgaard (55) & Anne Cathrine Christophersdatter (33) http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20061106010472.jpg

Amund Larsen Wigen (Nordbyvik) sponsor, Gift med Ingeborg Olsdatter fra Grani, enke etter Christen Tostensen Wigen. http://www.digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=12&filnamn=f18010238&gardpostnr=89&personpostnr=2020&merk=2020#ovre Amund Larsen Wigen var fra fra Elstad i Ullensaker/Hovin http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=8&filnamn=f1801&gardpostnr=7132&personpostnr=93119&merk=93119#ovre Har en søster Marthe Larsdatter gm Christen Olsen. De har en datter Anne Christensdatter døpt 05 MAR 1775 Ullensaker

Ole Olsen Sundby sponsor (samme som ved fadder ved 1) Olias dåp 1810)

 

Anders Gundersen of Steensgaard

Bygdebok: Steensgaard:

”ANDERS GUNDERSEN var enkemann og 55år gl. Da han 1820 ble g m Anne Katrine Kristoffersdatter. Ca 1788-1836 Barn: Gunder Martin 1820, Inger Maria 1825. Anders ble i 1837 (75år gl) g m enke Kari Larsen Tømte (64 år).”

 

Lars Olsen of Steensgaard

Bygdebok: Steensgaard ”Lars Olsen var gift med Katrine Larsdatter som tjente på prestegården. Hun død i 1805, 41 år. Barn Johan 1799-1801, Lars Olsen ble i 1805 2.gang gift med Marte Olsdatter, Barn: Ole 1806, Johan 1809, Berte 1812” – ”

”LARS OLSEN ble gift 2.gang m Marte Jonsd. Barn Ola 1806.. Johan 1809.. Berte 1812...”

Lars Olsen Steensgaard var sønn av Ole Monsen og Berte Pedersdatter http://www.digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=6&filnamn=f18010238&gardpostnr=1&personpostnr=42&merk=42#ovre

 

Johannes Johannesen of Praestegaaden ?

 

 

2) Christopher May 18, 1812

 

Marthe Johnsdatter of Steensgaard fra Sandsnes, gm Lars Olsen Steensgaard. Datter av Jon Tostensen fra Nordbyvik, bror av Ole, Haagen og Kristen Tostensen. http://www.digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=6&filnamn=f18010238&gardpostnr=124&personpostnr=2498&merk=2498#ovre

Gift 1805: enkem. Lars Olsen Steensgaard og Marte Johnsdatter http://digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=36&filnamn=vi02381791vi&gardpostnr=319&personpostnr=978&merk=978#ovre

(Marte Johnsdatters onkel ) Haagen Dahl sponsor (= Haagen Tostensen f 1754 fra Vika (Wigen), Nordbyvik g 1784 m Anne Kristofferdatter Dahl http://www.digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=5&filnamn=f18010238&gardpostnr=114&personpostnr=2341&merk=2341#ovre (Haagen, sønn av Tosten Jonsen, har en bror Kristen Tostensen f 1745 gm Ingeborg Olsdatter Grani. Kristen Tostensen aka Christen Wigen http://digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=16&filnamn=f18010238&gardpostnr=89&personpostnr=2020#nedre )

Anders Steensgaard sponsor (Anders Gundersen Steensgaard)

 

Anne Cathrine Christophersdatter of Limseth, se over

 

Peder Pettersen of Limseth, i 1801 på Tømte : http://www.digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=9&filnamn=f18010238&gardpostnr=127&personpostnr=2540&merk=2540#ovre Aka Per Persen fra Sandsnes gm Goro Hansd Tømte. Son of Per Persen Sandsnestangen

 

Anders Gundersen of Steensgaard, se over

 

Ole Larsen of Sundbye, ?

 

 

3) Ole July 23, 1815

 

Elie Abrahamsdatter of Braaten – ? Kandidat http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=5&filnamn=f1801&gardpostnr=7400&personpostnr=99745&merk=99745#ovre

 

 

Kirstine Larsdatter of Sundbye ?

 

Ole Olsen (something illegible) (S.N. =Sundby Nedre?) http://www.digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=29&filnamn=f18010238&gardpostnr=116&personpostnr=2395&merk=2395#ovre sønn av Ole Kristensen S.N. 1741-1819, atakelig fra Døli, eide halve Nordmoen gm Marte Olsdatter f ca 1753 http://www.digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=57&filnamn=f18010238&gardpostnr=116&personpostnr=2392&merk=2392#ovre

 

Anders Gundersen of Steensgaard, se over

 

Hans Andersen of Limseth ?

 

Marte Johnsdatter Steensgaard, se over

[Heidi C. Huitfeldt]

Tybring,

Just tried to send you the scanned pages from the bygdebok on email, but it bounced.. Could you please check the address you gave above if something is missing? :unsure: )

[Heidi C. Huitfeldt]

Tybring,

Just tried to send you the scanned pages from the bygdebok on email, but it bounced.. Could you please check the address you gave above if something is missing? :unsure: )

 

The address was ok.. I tried to send it in two parts because of the many attachments. That went a lot better :)

[Tybring Hemphill]

Hi Heidi,

 

Thanks for the further analysis of the sponsors. That is an interesting link to an Anne Christensdatter. She is born in the right year (aged 46 when she moved from Nannestad in 1822) so therefore born in 1775 or 1776. Though when I look at the emigration record it looks like they left in March 3, or May 3, 1822. By either of those dates, a person baptised on March 5, 177 would have been 47 not 46 years old. We get so close, but never quite right. Still, It makes me think I should look for a marriage between a Lars Olsen and Anne Christensdatter in Ullensaker in 1808-1810.

 

What do you think, though, about the fact that Anders Gundersen of Steensgaard was a sponsor for lars Olsen/Anne Nielsdatter's child? Is this just a coincidence? And what do you think of the Anders Gundersen of Steensgaard who is mentioned as a creditor of the estate of Lars Olsen who died in 1827 with a 12 year old son named Ole? Is this a separate person named Anders Gulbrandsen and the person who made the post was mistaken? Is that supposed to be a listing of children of the deceased Lars Olsen - if so perhaps we can conclude that this is not the right person after all as I don't think he had all of these children.

 

Tybring

[Tybring Hemphill]

Here is Anne Christensdatter of Ullensaker in the 1801 census:

 

http://www.digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=44&filnamn=f18010235&gardpostnr=157&personpostnr=3748&merk=3748#ovre

 

And here she is at her confirmation:

 

http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?show=71&uid=175633&urnread_imagesize=big&hode=nei&ls=1&lc=x%259CK%25B42%25B2%25AA.%25B62%25B4R%25CAT%25B2.%25B62%25B1R2731%25021%2581B%25C5J%25D6%2599V%25E6%2586%25D6%25B5%2500%25BF%25F8%2509%25BD

 

I have looked in all of the other commune of Ovre Romerike and the only other possibilities are two in Eidsvold:

 

http://www.digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=31&filnamn=f18010237&gardpostnr=47&personpostnr=1686&merk=1686#ovre

http://www.digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=32&filnamn=f18010237&gardpostnr=107&personpostnr=3090&merk=3090#ovre

 

There was no suitable candidate living in Agger in 1801 either so that makes it less likely that the move to Agger in 1822 was a move to her family.

 

Heidi, when you talk of a slight social difference between the sponsors of the two families, can you explain to me what that difference is? Thank you.

 

Tybring

[Tybring Hemphill]

Unfortunately, I cannot find any record of a marriage of a Lars Olsen to an Anne Christensdatter in Ullensaker between the dates of 1805-1810 inclusive. Another disappointment.

 

Tybring

[Tybring Hemphill]

I see that Mette was able to get a reply to the question of what information was in the engagement of Ole Larsen and Petronelle Amundsdatter. Most significantly, it shows that Lars Olsen, father of the groom, was a "snedkerarb." or carpenter

[Karl Johnny Sommer]

Hi Tybring - I also found the Anne Christensdatter you mention in posts 41,but I think it is she

who marries a widower Lars Knudsen Hallingstad April 4 1804 in Ullensaker.Mvh Johnny

[Heidi C. Huitfeldt]

Some more on the sponsors:

 

Johannes Johannesen of Praestegaaden ? must check original could be Johannes Jacobsen? Stepson of Lars Olsen Steensgaard m to Catrine Larsdatter Steensgaard. http://digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=1&filnamn=f18010238&gardpostnr=1&personpostnr=44#nedre

 

Ole Larsen of Sundbye, - from Sandsnesseter ? m. 1796 to Guro f 1766, daughter of Jon Tostensen from Nordbyvik (Wigen)

 

 

More about Anders Gundersen

From Bergerbotn in Eidsvoll born about 1761-65

(age 37) 1801: http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=11&filnamn=f18010237&gardpostnr=46&personpostnr=1638&merk=1638#ovre

Mentioned at Tømte and Steensgaard in the bygdebok .

Marrried:

In to ? Marthe Gulliksdatter (wonder about her age in 1801..?)

(at age 55) 1820 Anne Cathrine Christophersdatter Steensgaard

(at age 75) 1837 Kari Larsdatter Tømte (widow 64 years)

 

(I think he is the Anders Gundersen mentioned in the skifte in posting #36, but for several reasons I doubt if it is the same Lars Olsen. )

 

Anders Gundersen was sponsor for several children in Nannesad in the period 1804-12. They all seem to be within the same group of people, mostly from Steensgard, Tømte, Limset, Sundby, Dal and Nordbyvik. all farms in the same neighbourhood. Anders Gundersen was probably someone held in high esteem in this community. http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&filnamn=dp02381791

 

In 1813 Anne Christensdatter and Lars Olsen sponsors a child from Sundby. http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=20&filnamn=dp02381791&gardpostnr=1749&personpostnr=13965&merk=13965#ovre

 

Anne Christensdatter might be born in Eidsvoll were the records are missing. In the 1801 census there are six candidates based on age in Eidsvold http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&filnamn=f18010237

 

( In regards to age given you should know that the question about age was given as “Age next birthday?”. In old records it will almost always be a year more than how we would give or age today. (Read about the 1801 census here http://digitalarkivet.no/dok/1801/1801dok.html ) and also there’s a lot of interpretation, writing and typing errors..)

 

Either way, I think there could be more to find in the puzzle of the sponsors. They all seem to be connected through Nordbyvik somehow... I think Lars Olsen and/or Anne Christensdatter are to be found amongst them.

 

Here is something from the bygdebok about, Nordbyvik, Limset and Tømte:

 

Nordbyvik (Wigen/Vika):

1)JON NILSEN 1674-1733 married to Goro Gulliksdatter ca 1674-1751

Marte 1700-03

Nils 1702 to Færstad, m.to Kari Isaksd. Færstad

Tosten (see next)

Ola 1707-29

Anne 1709

Marte 1711 m1733 to Hans Nilsen Limset

(maybe also a daughter Dorte m. to Daniel Eriksen in 1717)

 

2)TOSTEN JONSEN 1704-83 married to Kari Kristensdatterr ca 1719-89

Ola 1737-1810

Mari 1739

Kari 1741 m. to Ola Kristoffersen Sørgarn Engelstad

Jon 1743 m 1764 to wid. Ingrid Gulbrandsen (1739-1801) Sandsnes (born Holkeby)

Kristen 1745 m. 1781 to Ingeborg Olsdatter Grani (See next)

Berte 1747 m 1769 to Ola Olsen Hegli

Hans 1749 m 1774 to wid. Kari Larsdatter Stenset

Gullik 1751 m 1777 to Dorte Jensdatter Elton, a daughter Marthe Gulliksd b.1779

Håken 1754 m 1784 to Anne Kristoffersdatter Dahl, lived on Dahl

Kristoffer 1758-61

Guro 1761 m 1781 to Ole Amundsen Garder in Ullensaker

 

3)KRISTEN TOSTENSEN 1745-1800 m 1781 to Ingeborg Olsd from Gangfløt/Grani

Dorte 1782 m 1801 to Jacob Kristoffersen Maura

Tosten 1785

Kari 1786

Boel 1789 m 1810 to Ola Hansen Rud in Bjørke

Mari 1792

 

The widow Ingeborg Olsdatter married a 2nd time to

 

4) AMUND LARSEN from Elstad in Ullensaker

a child Kristen b 1802

 

 

 

Limset:

1)HANS NILSEN b 1706 married 1733 to Marte Jonsdatter Nordbyvik 1711-1764

Jon 1734 married Kari Toresdatter Engelstad (see next)

Nils 1737

Anne 1740-41

Anders 1741-46

Anne 1744

Berte 1749

(Gunner Haagensen Bjørke was guardian for the children)

 

2) JON HANSEN b1734 m 1765 to Kari Toresdatter Engelstad

Marte 1768

Anne 1770 (probably) married Lars Jonsen Herstua

Kari 1772

Goro 1775

 

Tømte, Søstua:

1)NILS OLSEN gave up the lease on 2lpd in Søstua on 18.03.1802 to

2)ANDERS GUNNERSEN from Bergerbotn in Eidsvoll. He borrowed 49dlr from Ola OlsenSundby (cancelled in 1805). The lease was taken over 28.12.1803 by

3)OLA OLSEN Steensgaard m to Fredrikke Pålsdatter. Children born at Tømte. He borrowed 100dlr from Kristoffer Jonsen Sandsnes in 1805.

[Tybring Hemphill]

Thank you Johnny for the information about Anne Christensdatter of Ullensaker - disappointing as it is. If I had sterted my search in 1804 instead of 1805 I guess I would have found it also and saved myself a lot of searching - oh well.

 

And thank you, Heidi, for all of that information. There is so much it is hard to digest, but i am trying. I only see three reaasonable possibilities for Anne Christensdatter in Eidsvold, being the three that are in their twenties - the others are too old or too young.

 

 

 

http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&filnamn=f18010237

 

I see that Johannes Johannesen was also a sponsor at the baptism in 1813 where both Lars and Anne were also sponsors - so yes they do all begin to tie in together.

 

It would be ironic if Anders Gundersen who appears as a sponsor at every baptism is in fact the least close to the family, but I guess your explanation could make sense.

 

I think I should look more in Aker, both for deaths and evidence of leaving. Somehow the son Ole Larsen makes it to Oslo by 1840, but how and when is still a mystery. Do you have any suggestions for sources to try to track the family at that end (census or city directory or apprentice papers etc)and then hopefully find the skifte?

 

Tybring

[Tybring Hemphill]

Hello Heidi and Johnny.

 

1)I wonder if either of you have any suggestions for trying to locate the family of Lars Olsen, his wife Anne and son Ole during the 1830s? I am not sure from what has been written, if we know that Ole was living with or without his parents in 1829 when he was confirmed, as there was some suggestion that he was being fostered. If true, I suppose that could mean his parents both died in the 1820s which might narrow the search for any skifte. How likely is it that there would be a skifte for people such as these?

 

2)Heidi, you made some comments about the social standing of the different Lars Olsen families that I did not understand - could you please explain?

 

3) If Lars Olsen was a Snedkerarb. (as described at his son's engagement) does this help to choose between the various Lars Olsens we have seen?

 

mvh, Tybring

[Heidi C. Huitfeldt]

Hi Tybring.

 

1) I do not have much experience searching in Aker, but I know there are few records in this period in general, besides the church registers. Byarkivet in Oslo have some, see “Kilder på nett” and “Kildeomtale” on their site http://www.byarkivet.oslo.kommune.no/slektshistorie/ . See also http://www.ager.no/index.htm . (Rødtvedt is in “Øver Romsaas district” btw)

 

I think the best chance of finding them is to go trough the church registers, both Aker and Nannestad, to find the burials of Lars and Anne. Possibly also Oslo Domkirke and Garnisonsmenigheten as Ole seem to live in Skippergaden when he marries, and Raadusgaden in 1865. It’s a lot of work, but still.. I doubt if you will find a skifte, -or at least I would have gone trough the church registers first. (Hope someone has something to add in regards to if Skippergaden is in O.D. or Garnisonmenigheten parish.)

 

Ole may or may not have been living with his family in 1829, but as he gives his place of living Nannestad at age 15 after leaving Nannestad with his family at age 7, I would think there is reason to doubt that, or the family may have moved back (and forth..) Maybe check “Innflyttede” in Nannestad too?

 

(I had a similar case where there was a confirmation in Christiania giving place of living Nannestad. It turned out the person lived with his aunt and uncle as a fosterchild in Christiania, still having his mother alive in Nannestad.)

 

At Oles marriage there is a witness declaration sign by two persons, one being

a Christopher Haagensen. I think this is him in 1801

http://www.digitalarkivet.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=20&filnamn=f60301&gardpostnr=1108&personpostnr=29368&merk=29368#ovre , he seems to be from Garder in Ullensaker. Could be a clou.

 

Have you checked the sponsors of Oles children, if anyone has connection to Nannestad?

 

Ole Larsen Sundby might have been given a letter of citizenship (Borgerskap) in Christiania as he was a skreddermester, and I guess as such, a trader. (I’m not sure if the citizenships were formalized in this period, as it was earlier. Maybe somebody can help on this topic?) http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fno.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBorgerskap

 

 

2) As you will see in the pages from the bygdebok, the people on the different farms are mentioned in different groups; owners, users and “crofters and others”. It was a kind of social hierarchy, based on their relation to the land they lived on, and people (mostly) married within their own group. To get an impression of the social conditions in Norway in this period, there are ie some interesting articles among the “Volumes” mentioned on this site http://www.naha.stolaf.edu/pubs/nastudies.htm

 

Here’s a couple of links to short explanations of the different groups of people http://www.valdressamband.org/stories/social.html and http://www.borgos.nndata.no/leilend.htm (and here’s a dictionary that might be useful http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~norway/na17.html )

 

I will scan and mail you a couple of more pages from the book, that gives an overview of the farms in Bjørke sokn and the numbers of the different classes of people on these farm, at different times. It might give you an impression of the changes that took place in the period late 1700-late 1800’s (-As a consequence of an increased population, less child deaths, transformation of farmland from owners to leaseholders and crofters, transformation from household-farming to business farming, industrial revolution, -and a couple of other topics you should “drop by”! ☺ )

 

Ole Larsen Sundby seems to be “climbing the ladder” from, possibly, the son of a “crofter without land” to skreddermester and Citizen in Christiania. He also gives his children very “modern” and “citizen-like” names, compared to what he (probably) came from.

 

 

3) Many, or most of the crofters also had other “occupations” besides farming. They worked in the woods, the sawmills, as blacksmiths and craftsmen of different kind. The farming season in Norway was (and is) short, so it was a bare necessity in order to feed the family.

That Lars Olsen gives snekker as his occupation tell us most of all what kind of work he was doing at the time, and that he must have had skills as a carpenter. It would also get him a little step up the ladder from crofter to worker, maybe especially when moving from Nannestad to Aker/Christiania to a more city-like environment.

Of course it would help to identify him, or at least it would support the chances of identifying him if you find any “Lars Olsen, snekker” and other data fitting the person.

 

 

I have not given up on find more amongst the sponsor of Lars Olsen’s children. I will keep on searching the bygdebok (as I’m also still looking for “my own” Jon Olsen…), I just haven’t had much time for this the last few days. I’ll get back to you when or if I find something!

[Tybring Hemphill]

Hi Heidi,

 

As always, your post is very complete and informative with many new ideas to search. I have tried to look for Haagen Christophersen in the 1801 census since he is 65 in the 1865 census that you attached. Here are the possibilities, just in case he is a family connection (he is from Ullensaker which is near Nannestad).

 

http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=1&filnamn=f1801&gardpostnr=7354&personpostnr=98208&merk=98208#ovre

 

But really, I think that this must be him since in both 1801 and 1865 he is living on Pebervigen street in Christiania

 

 

http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=1&filnamn=f1801&gardpostnr=8449&personpostnr=115500&merk=115500#ovre

 

That makes it a bit of a mystery as to why he is described in 1865 as coming from Ullensaker. I cannot see anything helpful in the names of his parents: Knut Haagensen and Maren Christophersdatter. (the neighbour is an Ole Olsen who is old enough to be a father to Lars Olsen, but this is speculation on name alone)

[Tybring Hemphill]

Thanks for the Oslo Site, Heidi. This shows that already in 1845 Ole Larsen (presumably)Sundbye was a skraeddermester living at Radhusgate 20. He seems to have become successful quite quickly in the city.

 

http://www.byarkivet.oslo.kommune.no/OBA/resultpage.asp?query=sundby&table=lign1845&language=nor&searchtype=simple

 

I wonder who the other Skraedder living in Oslo at the same time was?