Looking for my great grandmother

[Arnstein Rønning]

Thank you, Inger Karin!

 

The family tree says she went to Russia, but no trace of her there in this paper after arriving (the only one of those siblings with no trace). Her brother Christian is mentioned as a "fishtrader" in Tsypnavolok (Russia), so he was for sure part of the "Pomorhandelen" the Pomor trade.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomor_trade

 

His sister could easily follow one of those ships back to Norway(until the Russian revolution in 1917)... Lofoten was for sure the best place to buy fish to take back to Russia, in change for grain products, so no wonder she stopped there for a while. But we still don't know for sure that this is your 3rd grandmother.

 

 

[Arnstein Rønning]

Hilary - what I REALLY should like, is to have a look at your DNA match-list  :)  Can you have a look again and tell me if this is a test performed by FTDNA (Family Tree DNA)? If it's FTDNA, I can give you some advice how to read the result and how to search etc. It probably is FTDNA, because their lab did the tests for National Geographic, and it was easy to "transport" over to FTDNA (I started there too). 

 

Are you in the "pure" maternal line here (mother-mother-mother), and if you are, have you taken the mtDNA-test?

 

The name of your close Norwegian match Bjørn - is this first name or surname? If this is a FTDNA-test, you have to look at largest block and total cM to see how close they are related to you.

 

 

[Inger Karin Haarbye]

Mathilde Johanne Berger confirmation Hammerfest 1865 (in 1865 census she lived in Vardø...):

 

Kildeinformasjon: Finnmark fylke, Hammerfest, Ministerialbok nr. 5 (1857-1869), Konfirmerte 1865, side 172.

Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=297&idx_id=297&uid=ny&idx_side=-153

Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20050304020771.jpg

Endret Januar 29, 2016 av Inger Karin Haarbye

[Hilary Underwood]

Arnstein- My mother did the test and it's on the the FTDNA site. Originally done by National Geographic. I have been trying to look at it but do not know all the terms yet so it can be rather confusing. My mom did the mother to mother test.

 

Bjorn was the first name. I was not sure I should give his last name on the forum. His just stood out because it was the highest cM. 67 percent I think it was. I haven't looked at all the Finnish matches because they are numerous and new ones seem to pop up every day it seems. What else should I look at here? I guess I am wondering how it might help to find the missing link that is my great grandmother.     

Again, I want to thank everyone for their help! Even if this Mathilde doesn't turn out to be my ancestor it seems possible at the moment. And it's nice to know people are so willing to help try and find out who my mysterious grandmother was.

[Inger Karin Haarbye]

Join Norway DNA! :)

 

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/norway/about

[Arnstein Rønning]

Her sister Karen Marie Hagerup Berger is also on the same confirmation page. I wonder how she got the name Hagerup.. This is a Norwegian family "full of priests". 

 

Mathilde had a nephew who became a military officer in Russia before the revolution. 3 of her relatives were bakers in Vardø (Norway), probably provided with Russian "grain-stuff" from their family in Russia (sorry for my English).

 

Johanna Sofia must have left for Russia together with her second husband, I think. He is also mentioned as a seacaptain.

http://aforum.genealogi.se/discus/messages/44/40543.html?1212210709

[Inger Karin Haarbye]

Karen Marie was not her sister? Parents: Johan Fredrik Berger and Bernhardine Maria Lund

[Arnstein Rønning]

Hilary - open your matchlist. Click on  Ancestral Surnames. Write Lejonarm and "Enter". If any other person with this in their ancestry is your match, they will pop up (if they have written anything at all about their ancestors). You can also try Berg, Berger, Jørstad, Hatle, Harr, Følstad or other names among the descendants of Johanna Lejonarm. And of course Clementeoff (not sure of the spelling).

Inger Karin - that's right! Probably a relative.

 

But one of Mathilde's sisters was Sophie Lorentze Hagerup Berger. See Langballe's tree.

Hilary - that's right, not to enter full name of your matches!

Hilary - search also (under Ancestral Surnames) for Alatornio, Nedertorneå, Haparanda, Kalix.

[Inger Karin Haarbye]

Sophie Lorentze Hagerup:

 

Kildeinformasjon: Finnmark fylke, Hammerfest, Ministerialbok nr. 4 (1843-1856), Fødte og døpte 1849, side 48.

Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=296&idx_id=296&uid=ny&idx_side=-53

Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20050304020286.jpg

Endret Januar 29, 2016 av Inger Karin Haarbye

[Arnstein Rønning]

Hilary - I should like to know your mothers mtDNA haplogroup. If you don't want to write it here, you could send it to me privately on this forum by clicking on my name and write me a message, I think. Or better, I can write YOU a message, telling you my e-mail address. Look up in th right corner.

[Arnstein Rønning]

Even if this should turn out to be wrong person, it's still an intresting story about the moving of people up north.

 

Here is the death of Nicolai Henrik Berger in 1853. I can't figure out his "title", though.

 

Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=9762&idx_id=9762&uid=ny&idx_side=-179
Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20070611610439.jpg

[Ann-Mary Engum]

Yes, Grete - Burke could be Berge or something like that.

 

This may not be the right person, but ee have Mathilde Johanna born 24. jan 1851 in Hammerfest (Finnmark, N-Norway). Her father is "handlende" (selling things) Nicolai Henrik Berger in Mefjord. Mother is Sophie Johanne born Leijonarm from Haparanda (on the border Sweden/Finland up in Ostrobothnia). Probably with Finnish ancestry.

Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=296&idx_id=296&uid=ny&idx_side=-68

Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20050304020301.jpg

 

In the 1865 census, Matilde is called Matilde Johana Berg, she is now stephdaughter. The stephfather is "dagarbeider" taking jobs when offered. Her brother is called Berger (like their father was called).

http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01038401000555

 

Dåp  Forrige post - Neste post 

Kommune Kirkeboknr/navn År Kirke/sted Skjervøy Skjærvø/5 1847   Fornavn Kjønn Dåpsdato Fødselsdato Ekte/Uekte Sigfrid Nicolai m 11.07.1847 29.04.1847 u Fars Fornavn Etternavn Stilling Bosted Fødeår/Alder Nicolai Henrik Berger Ungk. Af Hammerfæst   Mors Fornavn Etternavn Stilling Bosted Fødeår/Alder Martha Knudsd. Pige Potka   Hjemmedåp Af Knud Semingsen Potka Omstendigheter rundt uekte fødsel Opgaven af Barnets Moder hendes 1ste Leiermaal

 

http://www.rhd.uit.no/kirkebok/kbliste.aspx?kb=d&RR=126698

 

Kildeinformasjon: Troms fylke, Skjervøy, Klokkerbok nr. 2 (1839-1848), Fødte og døpte 1847, side 183-184. 

Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=9733&idx_id=9733&uid=ny&idx_side=-94

Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20070607660522.jpg

 

----

 

Dåp  Forrige post - Neste post 

Kommune Kirkeboknr/navn År Kirke/sted Hammerfest Hammerfest sokneprestembete/4 1848   Fornavn Kjønn Dåpsdato Fødselsdato Ekte/Uekte Johan Henrik m 19.06.1848 26.02.1848 E Fars Fornavn Etternavn Stilling Bosted Fødeår/Alder Nicolai Henrik Berger   Meefjord   Mors Fornavn Etternavn Stilling Bosted Fødeår/Alder Johanne Sophie f Leyonaren Hustru     Faddere Kandidat J. Jentoft Handelsfuldmægtig Andreas Berger Fru Marie Aagaard Jomfru Lorentze Berger Hjemmedåp Af C. Lund

http://www.rhd.uit.no/kirkebok/kbliste.aspx?kb=d&RR=139692

 

----

 

Dåp  Forrige post - Neste post  Kommune Kirkeboknr/navn År Kirke/sted Hammerfest Hammerfest sokneprestembete/4 1849   Fornavn Kjønn Dåpsdato Fødselsdato Ekte/Uekte Sophie Lorentze Hagerup k 31.08.1849 13.07.1849 E Fars Fornavn Etternavn Stilling Bosted Fødeår/Alder Nicolai Henrik Berger   Mefjord   Mors Fornavn Etternavn Stilling Bosted Fødeår/Alder Johanne Sophie f Leyonaren Kone     Faddere Kjøbmand H. O. Doxrud Handelsfuldmægtig Kjeldahl Madamme Dina Berger Jomfru Netta Noodt Hjemmedåp Af Kjøbmand I. P. Berger

http://www.rhd.uit.no/kirkebok/kbliste.aspx?kb=d&RR=139833

 

----

 

Dåp  Forrige post - Neste post  Kommune Kirkeboknr/navn År Kirke/sted Hammerfest Hammerfest sokneprestembete/4 1851   Fornavn Kjønn Dåpsdato Fødselsdato Ekte/Uekte Mathilde Johanne k 06.07.1851 24.01.1851 E Fars Fornavn Etternavn Stilling Bosted Fødeår/Alder Nicolai Henrik Berger Handlende Mefjord   Mors Fornavn Etternavn Stilling Bosted Fødeår/Alder Sophie Johanne f Leyonaren Kone     Faddere Kjøbmand Larsen med Kone Madamme Norberg Handelsfuldmægtig Engesgaard Hjemmedåp Af Faderen

http://www.rhd.uit.no/kirkebok/kbliste.aspx?kb=d&RR=140042

 

----

 

Dåp  Forrige post - Neste post  Kommune Kirkeboknr/navn År Kirke/sted Hammerfest Hammerfest sokneprestembete/4 1852   Fornavn Kjønn Dåpsdato Fødselsdato Ekte/Uekte Christian Vilhelm Bernhard m 26.09.1852 12.06.1852 E Fars Fornavn Etternavn Stilling Bosted Fødeår/Alder Nicolai Henrik Berger   Mefjord   Mors Fornavn Etternavn Stilling Bosted Fødeår/Alder Johanne Sophie f Leionaren Kone     Faddere Kjøbmand N. V. Nils. Kjøbmand Gerhard Stuhr Madamme Sørine Doxrud Jomfru Ulrikke Berger Hjemmedåp

http://www.rhd.uit.no/kirkebok/kbliste.aspx?kb=d&RR=140204

 

 

 

Endret Januar 29, 2016 av Ann-Mary Engum

[Arnstein Rønning]

So - Nicolai Berger had a child born out of wedlock in 1847, just before he married Sophie Johanne Lejonarm. He probably was an attractiv man  :)

[Inger Karin Haarbye]

Sophie Johannes relative? http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01037565004624

[Tore S. Falch]

 

Here is the death of Nicolai Henrik Berger in 1853. I can't figure out his "title", though.

 

 

He is a "Rettighedsmand" (= "man with rights"), a term that was used in the county of Finnmark describing people of Norwegian descent who were exempted from paying taxes, but still had to pay fees to the government or the authorities in order to obtain special "rights" related to e.g. fisheries, farming etc.

[Arnstein Rønning]

He is a "Rettighedsmand" (= "man with rights"), a term that was used in the county of Finnmark describing people of Norwegian descent who were exempted from paying taxes, but still had to pay fees to the government or the authorities in order to obtain special "rights" related to e.g. fisheries, farming etc.

Thank you! He was born in Rendsburg, today in Northern Germany, but probably belonging to Denmark/Norway at that time - or may be wrong. Perhaps his father born in Rendsburg.

Endret Januar 29, 2016 av Arnstein Rønning

[Hilary Underwood]

I went to sleep for a little while and woke up to all this!  :)

 

Arnstein- I found how to search surnames and started doing it last evening. I didn't have much luck. Except the man Bjork popped up when I typed in Berg because one of the surnames he has listed is Juberger. I sent my mother's kit results to you via email even though I am not bothered by it being mentioned here. But let me know what you think or if you need more information. 

 

Inger- I signed my mother into the group. I took over her account. 

 

Okay, now I have to go back and really look at each post. I feel like I am learning a lot even if it is not my great great grandmother. You people are very knowledgeable and wonderful!

[Grete Singstad]

What about Elvine Mathilde Johansen, born 1882 in Vardø? Her parents were kvener.

 

FT 1900

Finnmark fylke, Bysoknet i Vardø, Ministerialbok nr. 6 (1879-1886), Fødte og døpte 1883, side 55.

[Arnstein Rønning]

Hilary - I probably have the same Bjørn as a DNA-match. His Juberg ancestry is close to where I have a lot of ancestors in Trøndelag, but he has also a lot of ancestors from Nordland and I think I know how we are related. I have many matches in common with him, mostly from Norway and Sweden - only a few from Finland.

 

This is very interesting, but I will soon go out. I will contact you later via e-mail about the DNA (I've got your mail).

 

In the meantime you could look at what matches you have in common with Bjørn (matches that both you and he have). You can do that by clicking at the two crossing arrows close to his name.

Endret Januar 29, 2016 av Arnstein Rønning

[Hilary Underwood]

Thanks Grete! I'm open to any possibility. 

 

Arnstein- Thanks! I started looking at matches last night but it seems the closest ones don't have much listed for the mother to mother line or they are private. Or they have a somewhat similar ancestral surname listed but I find it on the paternal side. If you are busy please do not hurry on the DNA. I am not in any hurry and think I can occupy myself looking up Grete's suggestion and reading more on Scandinavian history and DNA  :)

 

For anyone out there reading- Can you tell me anything about the pauper census? Also what exactly is a domicile listing? I am sorry I have so many questions.

[Jon Erik Berg-Hansen]

You could start here:

 

 

http://www.rhd.uit.no/art/michael02.html

[Arnstein Rønning]

... I sent my mother's kit results to you via email even though I am not bothered by it being mentioned here. ..

 

The mtDNA is W. We can read about this haplogroup on Eupedia:

 

"Haplogroup W is particularly common in the eastern half of Europe, in the North Caucasus, in Central Asia, in Iran and in the north-west of the Indian subcontinent. In Europe, the maximum frequencies of W are observed in Finland (9.5%), Hungary (5%), Latvia (4%), Macedonia (4%) and Belarus (3.5%, but over 5% if we exclude the south)." 

 

Take also a look at the map showing the distribution of mtDNA W in Europe:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_W_mtDNA.shtml

[Arnstein Rønning]

Looking at the Norway DNA project https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Norway?iframe=mtresults

 

...and the Finland DNA project https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Finland?iframe=mtresults

 

there are 20 persons tested positiv on W i Norway and 100 in Finland. This points to Finland, but you never know. B.T.W. The Saami mtDNA is mostly a subgroup of U5. Not all testers have joined the projects, of course.

 

The test result says only W. That means there has not been taken a full sequence test. If so, we would have seen a subgroup of W as result. Then we would have had specific close matches to look at - and genetic distance too the matches.

 

But as I see this, most of it ponts to roots in Finland. Many Finnish matches in Family Finder, and Ella Matilda also said she had family from Lapland.

 

Lapland in Finland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapland_(Finland)

 

Lapland in Sweden: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapland_(Sweden)

 

 

 

[Inger Karin Haarbye]

The test result says only W. That means there has not been taken a full sequence test. If so, we would have seen a subgroup of W as result. Then we would have had specific close matches to look at - and genetic distance too the matches.

It is on mitosearch as 4SKPX, looks like only HVR1 is tested.

[Inger Karin Haarbye]

Just a thought... If Ella was born 1886 and emigrated in 1900, she was only 14. She told she was 16 when she emigrated, so it could have happened later than 1900. If she was so young, she might not have travelled alone - or at least - she would have travelled to relatives in US.

 

Jasper Berger f. 1873 in Hammerfest is a possible relative (his fathers father born in Rendsburg, Germany) He emigrated to New York in 1894 and died in Brooklyn 1913.

 

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WNH-6KY

 

http://gw.geneanet.org/brynjulf?lang=no&pz=else&nz=sevaldsen&ocz=0&p=jasper&n=berger&oc=1

Endret Januar 30, 2016 av Inger Karin Haarbye