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Robert Brown

Charles Brown - Born Norway

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Robert Brown

I would appreciate any assistance re my great grandfather Charles Brown, born Sogndal? Norway 1858, (Father Samuel?, Mother unknown).

Became a seaman.

His 1888 Marriage Certificate gives his age as 30 and his 1919 Death Certificates gave his age as 61. Both of which led us to believe he was born in 1858.

On his Marriage Certificate, Father: Samuel is listed.  We have both certificates.

“Born at Sogndal” was mentioned in his Death Notice in the West Coast Sentinel newspaper, Streaky Bay, South Australia 4th October 1919.

On his Death Certificate it is written "Born: Norway Town: Unknown".
Prior to discovering this we had not heard of Sogndal before, he has always been listed born Norway.

 

He arrived in Australia in the early 1880's. Settled in Broken Hill, New South Wales, Australia at the start of the mining boom. He was a Miner, Smelter, Trucker and later Shift Boss on the Silver Mine, Traffic Foreman at the Proprietary Mine.
As he had positions of responsibility in the mines at Broken Hill e.g. Shift Boss, the family story passed down that he was an officer on a ship might have some validity.
We are very careful where family stories are concerned as they can become “embellished" over time.

 

It is hard to know when he changed his name. It may have been after he"jumped ship" in Australia.

The story of him "jumping ship" has being passed down through the family and confirmed again recently. However we have not been able to verify that.
There have been no clues in Australia as to what his Norwegian name might have been.

 

He married Catherine Theresa Kavanagh, a widow, (maiden name: Delaney) at Petersburg, South Australia in the Catholic priest’s house in 1888. This would indicate he might have been a Protestant.

The family later moved to Piednippie, near Streaky Bay on the Eyre Peninsula, South Ausralia, to take up farming.
He died after a buggy accident on 30 Sep 1919 at Piednippie, South Australlia.

He was remembered as a ”wonderful man”, with a very fine disposition, easy going, calm.

It would have made family history research so much easier if he had kept his Norwegian name!! Or if the family had kept old letter, documents etc.

 

I realise this is a challenge!

 

Thank you

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Else E.

So where did he take the Brown-name from? 

There is a Bruun (=Brown)-family in Larvik in Sogn og Fjordane i 1815, closest I get so far if Sogn og Fjordane county .

http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01051178000144

 

 

But there is a Bruun/Brun-family in Sogndal in Rogaland county, worth looking here?

http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01038198000443

 

 

 

 

Else

 

Endret av Else E.

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Robert Brown

Hi Else

Thank you for doing the research.

Have checked the links above but the birth years are the problem. We are confident that he was born in Norway 1858 (1857 at the earliest).

On his 1888 Australian Marriage Certificate his age is given as 30 years.

Why did he take the name "Brown" we wish we knew. He could have taken this name at any stage? Perhaps some captains on the ships could not understand his Norwegian name and so like many others he changed it or Anglicised it? Or he did desert ship and changed then it to avoid capture? Was his Norwegian name Samuelsen?

 

Robert

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Else E.

Brown is most likely an anglification of the Norwegian surname Brun / Bruun. Same meaning. 

 

Here is a guy with same name, seaman http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/gen/vis/8/pe00000000319750

 

You might try the Norwegain Statsarkiv in Kristiansand, Stavanger and Bergen if they can find his register as seaman, Called sjømannsrulle (semansroll). Do you know the name of the ship he left, where and when?

 

E.

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Robert Brown

Hi Else,

 

I checked the link but he is too old 1854 instead of 1857/8.

 

Re Seamens Roll not speaking Nowegian does limit my ablity to research some of this information.

 

Looking at the "Son of Samuel" approach

There is a Carl Nicolai Samuelsen was born in Bergen, Norway the 14th of February 1857.
He was a 19 year old jungman on the ship Carl Rosenius from Bergen.

 

Best wishes

 

Robert

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Inger Karin Haarbye

In Svanøy, church records for Kinn/Bru, I can find a Carl Henrik Samuelsen b. 10. feb. 1859.

 

Nr. 19, born out of wedlock (parents married later):

 

Kildeinformasjon: Sogn og Fjordane fylke, Bru (Svanøy) i Kinn, Klokkerbok nr. C 1 (1854-1868), Fødte og døpte 1859, side 21.

Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=11536&idx_id=11536&uid=ny&idx_side=-22

Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20070510620706.jpgonfirmation

 

1865: http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01038268004438

 

I don't know this place, it is in Sogn og Fjordane, but not Sogndal, the place is named Bru.

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Robert Brown

Hi Inger,

 

Thank you for doing this research - It is appreciated.

 

Not sure about Carl Henrik mainly because of the birth year (1859, we have 1858/7)

 

Karl Sammuelsen (born 1858 calculated), father Samuel Knudsen looks promising. Stavangar? is not near Sogndal but how sure can we be about Sogndal until it has been confirmed definitely.

If we could find that Karl was a seaman and if here was a link to Australia (either with evidence or oral history) that would be really positive.

This applies to the other links as well.

 

Best wishes

 

Robert

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Inger Karin Haarbye

No, it is not in the town Stavanger, but in Kinn, Bru, Svanøy - in Sogn og Fjordane (Sogndal is in Sogn og Fjordane too).

His confirmation is here (no 25):

 

Kildeinformasjon: Sogn og Fjordane fylke, Bru (Svanøy) i Kinn, Klokkerbok nr. C 2 (1869-1918), Konfirmerte 1874, side 168.

Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=6904&idx_id=6904&uid=ny&idx_side=-169

Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20070115320483.jpg

 

We know "nothing" about him, but he is a candidate.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svanøya

http://www.fjordkysten.no/en/Product/?TLp=47178

 

(And he is born only 40 days after 1858)

 

Map - Sogndal and Svanøy:

 

http://kart.finn.no/?lng=7.10301&lat=61.23144&zoom=8&mapType=normap&markers=5.07033,61.48458,r,Svanøya|7.10301,61.23144,r,Sogndal

 

In 1900 his 3 brothers Rasmus, Samson and Ole are still in Kinn, fishermen. Karl is not.

In 1865 he is the only Carl|Karl Samuelsen b. 1850-1859 in Sogn og Fjordane.

Endret av Inger Karin Haarbye

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Robert Brown

Karl Samuelsen is certainly a candidate.

As I have not been able to get very far with him researching myself, are you able to find out if he ever became a seaman? That certainly would be a positive step.

 

Interesting that he had two brothers after the 1865 Census, given tnat his mother was in her mid forties.

I could not find any further information on her or her husband Samuel Knudsen. Do you have any?

 

Samuel was a farmer do you know what sort of farmer - livestock? grain? fruit tress?

 

Thank you

 

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Inger Karin Haarbye

No, sorry, I don't know if he was a seaman, maybe someone else know more about this. They lived at the coast, and ships were built at this island. Samuel was a "husmand" - cotter or crofter.

 

Louises age in 1865 is wrong. She is born in Førde 1825 (no 63):

 

Kildeinformasjon: Sogn og Fjordane fylke, Førde, Ministerialbok nr. A 6 (1821-1842), Fødte og døpte 1825, side 33.

Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=11407&idx_id=11407&uid=ny&idx_side=-35

Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20070227250399.jpg

 

They were married in Kinn/Svanøy 1859, no 63:

 

Kildeinformasjon: Sogn og Fjordane fylke, Bru (Svanøy) i Kinn, Klokkerbok nr. C 1 (1854-1868), Ekteviede 1859, side 95.

Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=11536&idx_id=11536&uid=ny&idx_side=-96

Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20070510630041.jpg

 

Samsung Olai f. 1868, no 13:

 

Kildeinformasjon: Sogn og Fjordane fylke, Bru (Svanøy) i Kinn, Klokkerbok nr. C 1 (1854-1868), Fødte og døpte 1868, side 72.

Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=11536&idx_id=11536&uid=ny&idx_side=-74

Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20070510630019.jpg

 

Ole Mathias f.1873, no 48:

 

Kildeinformasjon: Sogn og Fjordane fylke, Kinn, Ministerialbok nr. A 6 (1857-1885), Fødte og døpte 1873, side 182.

Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=6890&idx_id=6890&uid=ny&idx_side=-186

Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20070112350502.jpg

 

Samuel Knudsen was born in Jølster ca. 1832 (from marriage record).

 

No 37:

 

Kildeinformasjon: Sogn og Fjordane fylke, Jølster, Ministerialbok nr. A 8 (1821-1833), Fødte og døpte 1832, side 65.

Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=11528&idx_id=11528&uid=ny&idx_side=-67

Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20070509690069.jpg

 

Confirmation,no 5:

 

Kildeinformasjon: Sogn og Fjordane fylke, Jølster, Ministerialbok nr. A 10 (1847-1865), Konfirmerte 1847, side 1.

Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=8398&idx_id=8398&uid=ny&idx_side=-125

Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20070305640552.jpg

Endret av Inger Karin Haarbye

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Ann-Mary Engum

Carl Henrik Samuelsen

Norway Baptisms, 1634-1927

birth:
10 February 1859
 
christening:
25 April 1859
, SVANO, SOGN OG FJORDANE, NORWAY
residence:
1859
Sogn og Fjordane, Norway
father:
Samuel Knudsen
mother:
Lovise Eriksdr

 

 

Died   1883.

No 32.

Kildeinformasjon: Sogn og Fjordane fylke, Kinn, Ministerialbok nr. A 13 (1870-1885), Døde og begravede 1883, side 179. 

Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=6904&idx_id=6904&uid=ny&idx_side=-96

Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20070115310606.jpg

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Inger Karin Haarbye

Kildeinformasjon: Sogn og Fjordane fylke, Kinn, Ministerialbok nr. A 13 (1870-1885), Døde og begravede 1883, side 179.

Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=6897&idx_id=6897&uid=ny&idx_side=-96

Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20070115310606.jpg

 

 

OK, then he is not Charles Brown...

He was probably sailor, but died in Marseille.

Endret av Inger Karin Haarbye

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Else E.

Robert, do you know any names of ships that he sailed to Australia with, or any ships he sailed?

 

E,

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Robert Brown

Hi Else,

Sorry we do not know of any ships that he sailed on.

We did start a search some years ago through the Maritime History Archive, Newfoundland but it did not go very far and the Charles Brown we thought was "ours" turned out to be too old. In addition their files at that time were not digitised.

Also we are not sure when he changed his name.

 

Robert

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Robert Brown

Ann-Mary

 

Re Karl Samuelsen do we have a death certificate for him?

Do know how he died?

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Else E.

You write:



"His 1888 Marriage Certificate gives his age as 30 and his 1919 Death Certificates gave his age as 61. Both of which led us to believe he was born in 1858.

On his Marriage Certificate, Father: Samuel is listed.  We have both certificates."

 

Is the fathers name only Samuel? Samuel what? Brown?

 

 

Else
 

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Inger Karin Haarbye

Ann-Mary

 

Re Karl Samuelsen do we have a death certificate for him?

Do know how he died?

The church record does not state how he died. No 32:

 

Kildeinformasjon: Sogn og Fjordane fylke, Kinn, Ministerialbok nr. A 13 (1870-1885), Døde og begravede 1883, side 179.

Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=6897&idx_id=6897&uid=ny&idx_side=-96

Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20070115310606.jpg

 

"Dødsfaldet meldt af fra(?) Ålesunds Indrulerings Kontor den 23/8 83. [Dø]d i Marseille ifølge Skrivelse [-] Indre Departementet af 24/7 83"

 

Someting like: The death reported from (?) Ålesund enrollment Office of the 23/8 83. [Die] d in Marseille according to Letter [-] Internal Department of 24/7 83

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Benn Limann

The 1865 census of Sogndal/Sogn og Fjordane has only two persons with  first name of  Karl  born 1858: Karl Melkiorsen and Karl Kristiansen . Their fathers names are not Samuel. And I can't find anyone with fathername of Samuel born 1858 neither in Sogndal/ Sogn og Fjordane nor Sogndal/ Rogaland.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Robert Brown

Thank you for all replies.

 

Else E

On Charles Brown's Marriage Cerificate Father's Name is Samuel Brown. Not sure why it was put down as Brown maybe the priest assumed if he was Charles Brown his father was Brown as well?

 

Inger Thank you for that

 

Benn Thank you for doing this research. It is a mystery for the moment.

 

Is it worth iooking at the Seaman's Records 1873-1885 for a Carl/Karl born 1858/7? possibly in Sogndal?

 

Regarding Sogndal it may not be correct. Sogndal was mentioned in the newspaper not on his Death Certificate which says Born Norway Town unknown.

 

Another researcher on another website has commented:

 

I was searching the ‘norway’ posts and thought I would take a look for your Charles Brown. I have found the most likely candidate for you (Carl Nicolai Samuelsen, born 14 Feb 1857 in Bergen) - we have 3 good clues - his age, he was a seaman and his name was likely Carl/Karl Samuelsen - Carl Samuelsen is not such a common name in Norway so I did some searches in the 1875 and 1865 Norway census and this Carl really seems to be the right man. I have included the links to the sources in the Norwegian Archives for each item.

 

1) 1875 Bergen Census: Found Carl Samuelsen, age 19, ‘Jungmand’ (= ordinary seaman) listed on a ship’s crew (ship name: Carl Rosenius), born in Bergen. 

http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/en-gb/ft/person/pf01052295043020

 

2) Based on above, this is Carl’s family in 1865 Census:

http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/en-gb/ft/person/pf01038249003786

His father is Christopher Samuelsen, merchant , Christopher’s wife here is Marie Elisabeth Moss (2nd marriage). Carl's brother is enumerated as a seaman 'Sømand'

 

3) 1857 - his baptism record from Bergen Domkirken sogn:

Carl Nicolai was born 14 Feb 1857, baptised 8 Mar 1857, mother listed as Gurine Fredrikke Andersen

http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/en-gb/kb/dp/person/pd00000007408641

 

4) enumerated twice in 1875 - he is also enumerated with his step-mother Marie - age transcription error- year of birth must be 1858, not 1868 - don’t think he was an 8-year-old seaman as his occupation is listed as ‘Sømand'

http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/en-gb/ft/person/pf01052295021508

 

5) father’s first marriage to Gurine Fredriche Andersdatter in Bergen

http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/en-gb/kb/vi/person/pv00000001293038

 

6) 2nd marriage to Marie Elisabeth Moss

http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/en-gb/kb/vi/person/pv00000000160931

 

What do people think?

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Inger Karin Haarbye

He is a candidate too, of course, except he is not from Sogn og Fjordane and his father is not a Samuel. But he is a Samuelsen (grandfather is probably Samuel) Samuel is not the most common name in Norway.

If no more information is available, you just can't know. Lots of Norwegians has been seamen, we have a long coast.

 

DNA could be worth a try - ex. FamilyFinder (most norwegian test with FamilytreeDNA). If you are male line (Charles Brown your father's father's father) Y-DNA would be a good option.

Endret av Inger Karin Haarbye

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Robert Brown

Thanks Inger

I appreciate your comments and opinion.

 

If this is as far as we can go I will certainly consider FamilytreeDNA.

 

Robert

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Robert Brown

We have a problem with Karl born 1863.

On his Death Certicate his age is 61 years, he died in 1919 and on his Marriage Certificate in 1888 his age is given as 30 years, both indicating a birth year of 1858.

 

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