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Rebecca Johnson

Need help with marriage record for Osmund Knudson and Ane Jonsdatter

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Rebecca Johnson

Hello,

 

I have finally located the marriage record for my husband's 3 times great-grandparents Osmund Knudson and Ane Jonsdatter (Joensdatter?) on 26 Oct 1806 in the chronological list for Suldal, Rogaland 1800-1816.

 

The information I have is that she is from Foss and he is from Tjostheim but this may be an anglicised version of what looks like Kiosteim.

 

Is someone able to read the record found here: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/15892/57 in the middle of the right side page.

 

I also could not locate the Banns for this marriage. Should there be a banns in the record a month or so before the actual marriage? It is possible it was missed as there seems to be a high number of deaths around 1806-1808.

 

Any help is appreciated.

Endret av Rebecca Johnson

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Ivar S. Ertesvåg

"Dom 21de p Trit. 26e Octobr-   [21 sunday after Trinity. 26 Oct]

[... ]

Copuleret [married] Osmund Knudsen Kiøstem og pigen [the maid] Ane Johsd Foss"

 

Before 1812, there were no instructions on how to record the ceremonies.Therefore practice varied a lot.

Quite often, banns ("lysing") were not recorded, as seems to be the case here.

I estimate(!) that the reasoning was that when the couple is married, the record of the marriage will be the important record for the future.

 

Engagement as a public ceremony until 1799. Hence, this was (usually) included in the registry. After this time, engagement was private and

usually not included in the registry.

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Rebecca Johnson

Thank you Ivar! That helps a lot. So does "Ane Johsd" mean Johannesdatter? Or can this still be my Ane Joensdatter?

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Ivar S. Ertesvåg

 

[... ]

Copuleret [married] Osmund Knudsen Kiøstem og pigen [the maid] Ane Johsd Foss"

 

should be "Jonsd."  (my typo)

 

As you might know Jo, Jon, Johan, Johans, Hans and Johannes have the same greek origin. (Joen and John are just forms of Jon; the

distinction does not have a meaning in Norwegian.) It is not clear when the different forms were established as separate forms, and this

might have varied over the country. Moreover, there were local variants of the name(s), which were differently interpreted by different

officials. It is possible that the name of Ane's father is written Johannes in some other source.

 

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Rebecca Johnson

That is so interesting. I know I have seen variants of the name Anne. Ane, Anna, Anne. All are the same person but I have to go with how the birth record reported the name so I maintain some consistency.

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Rebecca Johnson

Dear All,

 

How common is it for the parish records to be in error?

 

I have Knud, Jon and Kari Osmundsen/datter born to Osmund Knudsen and Ane Joensdatter (Jonsdatter) but I just realised tonight that the document for Knud Osmundsen (my husband's great-great grandfather) has a mother Anne Nielsdatter? And not Joensdatter (Jonsdatter) as I expected and wondered if the recorder made a mistake with the last name? Is that common?

 

Right side - 1807 Kari Osmundsdatter: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/15892/60 mother Ane Joensdatter Foss/Hatleøyen?

Left side - 1810 Jon Osmundsen: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/1620/87 mother Ane Joensdatter Foss/Hatleøyen?

Left side - 1813 Knud Osmundsen: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/1620/99 mother: Ane Nielsdatter Hatleøyen?

 

Right side - Marriage for Osmund Knudsen and Ane Joensdatter Foss: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/15892/57

 

Does it seem like the parents are correct for all three children?

Endret av Rebecca Johnson

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Ivar S. Ertesvåg

Errors occurred....

 

Just to notice:

Kari's parents (1807) are "Osmund and Ane Hatløyen"   (no patronymicons)

An(n)e is not called "Foss" in any of the baptism entries.

 

To verify that "Nilsd." is an error, you need other evidence that Knut is a child of these parents.

Endret av Ivar S. Ertesvåg

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Ivar S. Ertesvåg

Thank you Ivar. Are you able to read what it says in the left column for the birth of Knud Osmundson? It looks like it is a correction that says JonsD?

 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/1620/99

 

 

It is not a correction...

 

"6te Søndag eft. Paaske

d. 30 Mai

ved Sand"

 

6th sunday after passover (easter)

(the) 30 May

at Sand [church]

Endret av Ivar S. Ertesvåg

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Rebecca Johnson

Thank you. I think I am going to have to do a lot more research to sort out the people involved. The information I had was provided from another person that indicated the parents were Osmund Knudson Tjostheim and Ane Joensdatter Foss. I am going through the process of confirming that information and ran into a snag with Knud Osmundson Ravnsfjeld and his parents. And, of course, he is key to my family tree because he is a direct relation to my husband (great-great grandfather). Also, the data through this family member goes back to the early 1600s. If he is not the right Knud Osmundson Ravnsfjeld then it wipes out hundreds of people in the family tree.

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Ivar S. Ertesvåg

Except from the "Nielsd", the entries are consistent with (i.e. not opposed to) the information you have received.

This is on the condition that the couple of the transcription in #2 settled at Hatløyen and used that as their surname (if so, this would be common practice).

 

However, to set up a family three (or rather: network) is a puzzle of fragments - and the more eager and impatient the researcher is, the larger chances for error. In particular when

impatience is combined with limited reservtions against uncertain connections.

 

 

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Rebecca Johnson

That is the challenge because Hatleøyen was used in the birth records for Kari, Jon and Knud Osmundson. It was also used for the mother's introduction back to church.

 

The couple married (1806) and had their first child, Kari Osmundsdatter, in Suldal and then must have moved to Julsa for the other two children to be connected to the right parents. Jon Osmundson appears to have the same parents as Kari Osmundsdatter: Osmund Knudson Hatleøyen (no Tjøstheim) and Ane Joensdatter (no Foss).

 

Then I located a potential census record for Osmund Knudson in 1801 Tiøstem (Tjøstheim?), Suldal, Rogaland age 23 and unmarried. I also have a death record for Osmund Knudson 4 Jan 1840 in Suldal that refers to Tjostheim. Here: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/1693/11192/5

 

I am starting to wonder if the births are not related at all. The only connection is that the father has the right name and it was common to name children after their paternal grandparents and maternal grandparents. So, Jon ties in as does Knud. But, my Knud is always referred to as Knud Osmundson Ravnsfjeld (Died 19 May 1850 in Hjelmeland here https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/1603/10550/5) and his father is always referred to as Osmund Knudson Tjøstheim.

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Rebecca Johnson

Upon further research my Knud and Jon Osmundsen's above are, in fact, different children from different parents.  Following my source document trails, I figured out that my children must have been born in Suldal and *not* Jelsa.  It is mere coincidence that I found two Knud Osmundsen's with a mother Ane both born in 1813.

 

My Knud Osmundsen is here born 30 Mar 1813 in Suldal, Rogaland (4th from the bottom on the left side): https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/kb20070627620125

 

Witnesses to his birth include Ingrid Foss and Ole Tjostheim which tie into the farms I would expect.

 

Now, to sort out my Ane Joesndatter Foss.  My information indicated that she died in 1828 in Rogaland around the age of 49.  I have located a death record in 1828 in Suldal that may or may not be her.  It is record #6 for 8 April 1828 found here on the right side:  https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/kb20070627620331

 

The record is hard to decipher.  Is someone able to translate the information for me?  Also, what significance are the numbers in the right column?  In this death record it is 363?  I presume they match up with documents elsewhere but which ones?

 

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Rebecca Johnson

I have also located Knud Osmundsen's confirmation first entry on left side of the page here: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/kb20070627620403

 

But, I cannot decipher the entry.  Can someone translate the record for me?  This record also has the number 363 in a column.

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Ivar S. Ertesvåg
1 hour ago, Rebecca Johnson said:

Now, to sort out my Ane Joesndatter Foss.  My information indicated that she died in 1828 in Rogaland around the age of 49.  I have located a death record in 1828 in Suldal that may or may not be her.  It is record #6 for 8 April 1828 found here on the right side:  https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/kb20070627620331

 

The record is hard to decipher.  Is someone able to translate the information for me?  Also, what significance are the numbers in the right column?  In this death record it is 363?  I presume they match up with documents elsewhere but which ones?

 

 

"Anne Jonsdatter Sundvolden  | Huusmands kone | 48 Aar"

 

The number 363 refers to the "Jevnførelsesregister" (matching or comparing register), which is a section in the protocol. 363 is the sheet (folium) No., in this case on the rear side,  No 35 here: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/kb20070627620465  (here, we are referred to fol. 110 for the death entry)

The idea of introducing this registry was to make an index for different entries regarding the same person. It seemed as it was not a very good idea and the use of it was soon abandoned in most parishes.

One benefit is that the name is repeated, and we get a 2nd chance of decipher the handwriting.

 

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Ivar S. Ertesvåg
12 minutes ago, Rebecca Johnson said:

I have also located Knud Osmundsen's confirmation first entry on left side of the page here: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/kb20070627620403

 

But, I cannot decipher the entry.  Can someone translate the record for me?  This record also has the number 363 in a column.

 

I am a little uncertain about the lettering of the father's name before "-mund"; however, like this:

"Knud Osmundsøn Sundvold | Osmund Knudsøn og Anna Jonsdatter | 1813, Midfaste Søndag  | Ringe Kundskaber | 1817  ?? | 364 "

 

("Ringe kundskaber" = poor knowledge),  The "??" is the person attestatating vaccination.

364 is (again) the comparing registry  No. 89 here: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/kb20070627620466

(rear side of fol. 364)

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Rebecca Johnson
2 hours ago, Ivar S. Ertesvåg said:

The number 363 refers to the "Jevnførelsesregister" (matching or comparing register), which is a section in the protocol.

 

Just so I understand, does this mean the Ane/Anna/Anne in these records are all the same person?  And she is the mother of Knud Osmundson? 

 

Is Sundvolden a farm? I had thought both the death record for AJ and the confirmation record for KO said Lundvold?  Or is that just how the recorder writes the letter "S"?

Endret av Rebecca Johnson
Alternative farm name

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Rebecca Johnson
1 hour ago, Ivar S. Ertesvåg said:

"Knud Osmundsøn Sundvold | Osmund Knudsøn og Anna Jonsdatter | 1813, Midfaste Søndag  | Ringe Kundskaber | 1817  ?? | 364 "

 

So, my Knud Osmundson is connected to Sundvold/Lundvold as is his mother?  The birth information is correct (28 Mar 1813) but now I am questioning why I started with an Ane Joensdatter Foss (marriage document) who turned to Ane Hatleøyen (birth document for Knud) who turned to Anna Jonsdatter Sundvold (Knud's confirmation document and her death document).

 

Edited to add: when I reviewed all of the names in the confirmation document that started with "O" or a combination of "Os" I believe the father is Osmund since the recorder writes those letters the same way throughout that page.

 

Endret av Rebecca Johnson
Alternative farm name

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Ivar S. Ertesvåg
36 minutes ago, Rebecca Johnson said:

 

Just so I understand, does this mean the Ane/Anna/Anne in these records are all the same person?  And she is the mother of Knud Osmundson? 

 

Is Sundvolden a farm? I had thought both the death record for AJ and the confirmation record for KO said Lundvold?  Or is that just how the recorder writes the letter "S"?

 

There is only one record for Anna here: her burial - recorded in the burial list and indexed in the comparing register. Had the comparing register been in (effective) use for a longer period, the events of her life would have been linked.

Whether other entries of an Anna J. are the same person, has to be evaluated based on the information given.

 

I read the name as "Sundvold(en)". There are two Sigrid (No. 1 and No 5) on the same page with the same S (however, also another S:, No. 3 Steenvor).

It is not a farm in the farm registry ("matrikkel") of Suldal. She is "Husmanns kone"; thus probably a "(husmanns-)plass", that is a (smaller) holding that is not registered.

 

 

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Ivar S. Ertesvåg
39 minutes ago, Rebecca Johnson said:

 

So, my Knud Osmundson is connected to Sundvold/Lundvold as is his mother?  The birth information is correct (28 Mar 1813) but now I am questioning why I started with an Ane Joensdatter Foss (marriage document) who turned to Ane Hatleøyen (birth document for Knud) who turned to Anna Jonsdatter Sundvold (Knud's confirmation document and her death document).

 

Edited to add: when I reviewed all of the names in the confirmation document that started with "O" or a combination of "Os" I believe the father is Osmund since the recorder writes those letters the same way throughout that page.

 

 

Knud's mother was called Anna Jonsd. (Sundvold(en)); it seems likely that it is the same Anna as in the death record above.

 

"Midfaste søndag" = 4th sunday in lent. In 1813 this was 28 Mar. According to the heading of the column, this is the date of baptism.

 

I was (am) a little uncertain about the -s- in Osmund. An alternative could be Ommund.

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Rebecca Johnson

Thank you so much Ivar.  That makes it easier to understand.  And you are right about the baptism date being 28 Mar 1813 for my Knud Osmundson Ravnsfjeld.  When Osmund Knudson Tjøstheim (his father) dies in 1840 it lists Tjøstheim and Lundvold (as residence?) here: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/1693/11192/5 which is why I thought the record said Lundvold versus Sundvold which would give me some assurance that I can say, "Yes, this is the right Knud Osmundson Ravnsfjeld finally."

 

Confusing matters is that I think that the information I am trying to back up with legitimate source documents has combined the children of two different sets of parents.  In other words, they assumed the children were from the same parents without really checking the information. 

 

I think there is an Osmund Knudson Hatleøyen and Anne JonsD in Jelsa who are the parents of Jon (1810), Knud (1813-although the mother in this record is Anne NielsD?) and Ingeri (1817), all born in Jelsa and all three records say Osmund Knudson Hatleøyen and Anna JonsD.

 

Jon: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/1620/87

Knud: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/1620/99 (mother Anna NielsD?)

Ingeri: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/kb20070621610054

 

I believe my Osmund Knudson Tjøstheim and Ane JonsD Foss have Kari (1807) and Knud Osmundson (1813).  Both are born in Suldal and both records say Osmund and Ane Hatleøyen.

 

Suldal marriage: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/15892/57

Kari: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/15892/60

Knud: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/kb20070627620125

 

Is there two Hatleøyen?  One in Jelsa and the other in Suldal?  I am still familiarising myself with the farm aspect of Norwegian genealogy records and it is confusing to see the same Hatleøyen in Jelsa and Suldal.

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Ivar S. Ertesvåg
6 minutes ago, Rebecca Johnson said:

Thank you so much Ivar.  That makes it easier to understand.  And you are right about the baptism date being 28 Mar 1813 for my Knud Osmundson Ravnsfjeld.  When Osmund Knudson Tjøstheim (his father) dies in 1840 it lists Tjøstheim and Lundvold (as residence?) here: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/1693/11192/5 which is why I thought the record said Lundvold versus Sundvold which would give me some assurance that I can say, "Yes, this is the right Knud Osmundson Ravnsfjeld finally."

 

 

 

Actually, this record (No.2/1840) reads "Sundvold und. [under] Tjøstem"; indicating that Sundvold (Sunnvollen) is a "husmannsplass" under Tjøstheim.

(compare with L in, for instance, "Lars" in Nos. 22, 30, 33/1839)

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Rebecca Johnson

Oh, thank you!  That is awesome.  I thought that was "og" between the names. 

 

So I had the name wrong to start with.  It is all making sense.

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