Gå til innhold
Arkivverket
Tyler

Hello, May I Ask A Question In English?

Recommended Posts

Tyler

Hello. May I ask a question in this forum in English? I apologize, I realize that making such a request is very rude. Please forgive me.

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Odd Halvorsen

Hello

 

Just go ahead!

 

Odd Halvorsen - The Regional State Archives in Oslo

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Tyler

Thank you! I apologize if this is the wrong category to ask this question. I am trying to confirm the identities of the parents of Johan Olsen Enger. These archives have been so incredibly helpful thus far; a combination of google translate and gothic handwriting samples and I have been able to get a lot of information already. I have hit a wall and need some help! I will ask my specific questions and then provide further detail below.

 

Specific Questions:

  1. Johan was born illegitimately to Maline Olsdatter and Ole Jahnsen on 16 May 1839 in Skedsmo. According to this website (http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~norway/na20.html), I understand their might be child support records that I can try to get some more information? Is this accurate and if so, how can I find these records?
    Quote: "Child support laws were introduced in 1763, and legal records relating to child support matters can be found in the archives of the amtmann (county governor) for each fylke (county) under the category farskapsforelegg (paternity matters) and bidragsprotokoll / oppfostringsprotokoll (child support records)."
  2. I know that each parish has their own farm book, and I thought I might be able to get more information by referencing those. According to this website (https://lokalhistoriewiki.no/index.php/Bygdebøker_og_tettstedshistorie_i_Skedsmo) there three specific farm books that I can reference. I tried to view a digital online copy, but I believe I was prevented from doing so because I do not have a Norwegian IP address. Is there another way to access these farm books?
  3. How would I know if Johan was in the military, and if he was, could I find more information on those records? How would I see those records? Is there a draft database?
  4. Are there other records that I can access that might shed some light on, and confirm the identities of, Johan's parents?

 

Details:

Mysteries:

  • I have reason to believe that a one Line Marie Olsdatter might be his mother (Her baptism: Skedsmo prestekontor Kirkebøker, F/Fa/L0008: Parish register (official) no. I 8, 1815-1829, p. 40.)
    • Argument for:
      • In the 1865 Census it shows Line Olsdatter living on the Enger farm in Skedsmo. She is 46 at the time, which would have made her about 19 at the time of Johan's birth. That seems about the right age considering he was illegitimate. Source: https://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/en-gb/ft/bosted_land/bf01038019000306
      • Line's family had lived on the Enger farm for some time. Her father listed on the 1865 census, Ole Eriksen, is also living on the Enger farm in the 1801 census. Since Line's family had lived on the farm for what seems to be at least one generation, it makes sense why Johan would take the name Enger. This is the reason I want to look at the Farm books.
      • I can see how Line Marie might be called "Maline": MArie LINE
    • Argument against:
      • In both records where Johan's mother is listed, she is listed as Maline. I do not know custom, so I am not certain if it would be normal for someone to be called a different name for a time being, or list an alternate use of their name on official records.
      • Johan was born at Asak Eie, not Enger eie.
      • Family tradition claims Maline was born in Fet, but I have seen no evidence to prove this.

 

Thank you very much, this has been very long. I appreciate you being willing to help!!!

 

-Tyler

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Anne-Lise Hansen

(It seems your posting has been moved to the user forum, so I'll take it to the top of the front page.)

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Torbjørn Igelkjøn

Names were not standardized in the 19th century, so it is normal to find variations like Line or Maline in different sources.

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Olaf Larsen

The word you seek in Johan's confimation is Lægdsbarn, which indicate he was in public care. The use of the farm name Enger in his name, only tell you where he lived at the time of his confirmation.

When Johan was baptized, all the godparents were from the farm Jølsen, and that is a bit unusual, but I don't know if it is significant.

Endret av Olaf Larsen

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Leif B. Mathiesen
1 time siden, Olaf Larsen skrev:

When Johan was baptized, all the godparents were from the farm Jølsen, and that is a bit unusual, but I don't know if it is significant.

Jølsen farm is in Fet parish.
Torgunrud and Jølsen was (is) on each side of the border between Skedsmo and Fet.
Perhaps one of the parents of Johan was from Fet?

Endret av Leif B. Mathiesen

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Tyler
1 hour ago, Olaf Larsen said:

The word you seek in Johan's confimation is Lægdsbarn, which indicate he was in public care. The use of the farm name Enger in his name, only tell you where he lived at the time of his confirmation.

When Johan was baptized, all the godparents were from the farm Jølsen, and that is a bit unusual, but I don't know if it is significant.

Thank you for the translation! The fact that he was in public care, does that change some of the sources I should be looking for to get more information? 

The reason why I think it is interesting that he took the Enger name is that from that time forward he always used Enger, even when he moved to Oslo. After he died and his wife and children moved to the United States, they kept the Enger name as their family name.

 

12 minutes ago, Leif B. Mathiesen said:

Jølsen farm is in Fet parish.
Torgunrud and Jølsen was (is) on each side of the border between Skedsmo and Fet.
Perhaps one of the parents of Johan was from Fet?

 

That is interesting and quite likely. Family tradition says that Maline came from Fet. May I ask where it is that you saw that Torgunrud and Jølsen are on each side of the border? Are you just using current maps? I have been looking for a map of farms in Nittedal and Skedsmo for some time now but cannot seem to find one.

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Stian Høiset

Are you able to access the National Map Service pages from US? (I don't know if it is IP address restricted.)

 

Else, you are correct that most of the National Library Services online book resources are restricted to Norwegian IP addresses. 

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Tyler
20 minutes ago, Stian Høiset said:

Are you able to access the National Map Service pages from US? (I don't know if it is IP address restricted.)

 

Else, you are correct that most of the National Library Services online book resources are restricted to Norwegian IP addresses. 

 

Oh that is great, thank you! I can access the map. That is exactly what I am looking for.

 

That is too bad about the IP restriction. I guess I will have to try and find another way to access the book.

 

Can anyone answer my question about paternity rights? Would there be records somewhere of child support given Johan was illegitimate? If so, where could I go to look at them? Thanks in advance.

Endret av Tyler

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Kjell Halvorsen

When Oluf Albert was christened 1 June 1869 I noted that Ole Jansen and Carl Fr. Jansen among the witnesses and when Carl Johan was christened 1 May 1870 I noted one Josefine Amalie Jansen as  witness. It looks to me like this family must have been the Jansens mentioned https://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01038027052459

A strong candidate for Ole Jansen born in Skedsmo around 1820 would be # 32

Akershus fylke, Lørenskog, Skedsmo i Skedsmo, Ministerialbok nr. I 8 (1815-1829), Fødte og døpte 1820, Side 41

Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060208040154

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Leif B. Mathiesen

I live in the area and is known locally. (I can see Jølsen farm from where I live.)
I use this map. (Norwegian).I hope you can use it.
Search (søk) Torgunrud.
Then you will see how short the distance is between Jølsen, Torgunrud and Mellom- Asak.

 

http://www.norgeskart.no/#4/685962/7080653

 

Kjell Halvorsens candidate was born in Kopperud  ca. 1 km. from Torgunrud

Endret av Leif B. Mathiesen

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Olaf Larsen

I have browsed the 3 books covering the farms in Skedsmo, and they are mainly concentrating on the history and owner/owner families of the farms, rather than all the people who worked and lived there, so they are not a good source in that respect.

The Torgenrud farm, where Johan's father most likely worked and lived as a farmhand, was owned in different periods - in whole or in parts - by people from Jølsen and Asak. I don't think the names in the 3 books will be of much help. The practice of adding a farm's name to your given name and the patronymicon, did not follow a set pattern. Some people used the name of the farm were they or maybe their parents were born, others used the name of the farm where they currently lived. It depended on their given name, an Ole Olsen shared his name with hundreds of other Ole Olsens in the county, and they needed some form of current identification, unless their family had recided in some farm for decades or centuries.

Endret av Olaf Larsen

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Kjell Halvorsen

Parents of the Ole Jansen introduced by me above, Jahn Jahnsen and Kari Olsdatter, where married in Skedsmo 28 Dec 1809, couple # 16

Akershus fylke, Lørenskog, Skedsmo i Skedsmo, Ministerialbok nr. I 7 (1808-1814), Viede 1809, Side 42a

Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/kb20061101050189

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Leif B. Mathiesen

The only candidate I find in FET between 1815 and 1821 is this
No.29 (right page) Born October 13, 1816 Malene Olsdatter
Parents Ole Sørensen and Marte Olsdatter on croft Buraas under Hovin farm

SAO, Fet prestekontor Kirkebøker, Ga/L0001: Klokkerbok nr. I 1, 1815-1842, s. 16
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/kb20061031050252

 

Buraas was not far fram Jølsen.
 

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Kjell Halvorsen

I skimmed the church records for Fet 1801 thru 1823 and came up with only one Mallene Olsdatter, same as Leif B. above

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Leif B. Mathiesen

Malenes family lived on Buraas when she was born. But in Fet farm history II I read that they also have lived on Strandbakken u/ Hovin farm.

 

Strand.jpg.4798f5bd54a021d89c84530535994c8b.jpg

 

 

Ps.

To Understanding the Norwegian Naming Practice read this.

http://www.norwaydna.no/gedcoms-and-genealogy/norwegian-names-en/

Endret av Leif B. Mathiesen

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Kjell Halvorsen

Based on the combined info from # 11 I went searching for the wedding of Ole Jansen and H. Malie Vengstrøm for a possible verification of Ole Jansens identity. I found their wedding in church records of Oslo Domkirke/Vår Frelsers parish in Christiania: Ole Jansen 28,5 year old and born in Skedsmo and Helene Amalie Wingstrøm 28 years old, born in Bragernes (Drammen), were married 22 Nov 1848, couple # 170

Oslo fylke, Oslo Domkirke / Vår Frelsers i Oslo, Ministerialbok nr. 20 (1848-1865), Viede 1848, Side 32

Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060215030035

Father of groom and bride was named farmer Jan Jansen and master bricklayer Olaus Wingstrøm respectively.

In my opinion this is very strong indication and close to confirms that the Ole who was born in Skedsmo 23 July 1820 by parents Jahn Jahnsen and Kari Olsdatter is identical to the Ole Jansen as witness when his grandson Oluf Albert was christened in 1869. Seemingly father Ole Jansen and son Johan Olsen Enger kept in touch up thru the years.

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Tyler
3 hours ago, Kjell Halvorsen said:

Based on the combined info from # 11 I went searching for the wedding of Ole Jansen and H. Malie Vengstrøm for a possible verification of Ole Jansens identity. I found their wedding in church records of Oslo Domkirke/Vår Frelsers parish in Christiania: Ole Jansen 28,5 year old and born in Skedsmo and Helene Amalie Wingstrøm 28 years old, born in Bragernes (Drammen), were married 22 Nov 1848, couple # 170

 

Oslo fylke, Oslo Domkirke / Vår Frelsers i Oslo, Ministerialbok nr. 20 (1848-1865), Viede 1848, Side 32

Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060215030035

Father of groom and bride was named farmer Jan Jansen and master bricklayer Olaus Wingstrøm respectively.

 

In my opinion this is very strong indication and close to confirms that the Ole who was born in Skedsmo 23 July 1820 by parents Jahn Jahnsen and Kari Olsdatter is identical to the Ole Jansen as witness when his grandson Oluf Albert was christened in 1869. Seemingly father Ole Jansen and son Johan Olsen Enger kept in touch up thru the years.

 

 

This is incredible. Thank you so much for doing all of this. I agree, I think this is the one! My other thought was to go through the baptism records of this Ole Jansen's children and see if Johan was ever a witness. I found the record for Emilie Kristen Olsen in Gaml e Aker b 1862 but Johan was not a witness there (https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/kb20061009030097).

 

I am having trouble finding the record of Oluf Reinart Olsen b 1860. Gamle Aker records only go back to 1861. Is there another parish it would have been in 1860?

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Tyler
On February 20, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Leif B. Mathiesen said:

The only candidate I find in FET between 1815 and 1821 is this
No.29 (right page) Born October 13, 1816 Malene Olsdatter
Parents Ole Sørensen and Marte Olsdatter on croft Buraas under Hovin farm

SAO, Fet prestekontor Kirkebøker, Ga/L0001: Klokkerbok nr. I 1, 1815-1842, s. 16
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/kb20061031050252

 

Buraas was not far fram Jølsen.
 

 

Thank you so much! I agree it comes down to this candidate in Fet vs the other candidate in skedsmo. In you opinion, what can we find that would definitively tell us which one it is?

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Leif B. Mathiesen

Johans mother name is Malene, not Maline.
I am quite convinced that Malene Olsdatter from Fet  the right mother.
There are no other Malene baptized neither in Skedsmo or Fet.

The same goes for the father Ole Jahnsen.

 

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Kjell Halvorsen
2 timer siden, Tyler skrev:

 I am having trouble finding the record of Oluf Reinart Olsen b 1860. Gamle Aker records only go back to 1861. Is there another parish it would have been in 1860?

Their first child Carl Frederik Olaus was christened in the Oslo Domkirke in 1849

 

Oslo fylke, Oslo Domkirke / Vår Frelsers i Oslo, Ministerialbok nr. 13 (1844-1864), Fødte og døpte 1849, Side 227
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060217010235

 

At the time Ole Jansen and wife was living at Pilestredet, which is in walking distance from the church in mention. Probably a good chance to find Josefine Amalie, Karoline Ovidia and Oluf Reinart christened in same church.

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Leif B. Mathiesen

Mallene Olsdatter in FT1865???

https://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01038012009973

 

Malenes marriage in 1857. A little late perhaps.

She already had 3 children with this man. (no.9)

Oslo fylke, Oslo og Oslo hospital i Aker, Ministerialbok nr. 4 (1850-1857), Viede 1857, Side 280
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/kb20061109020447
 

 

Endret av Leif B. Mathiesen

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Kjell Halvorsen

This couple, Rekvold/Rikvold Pedersen and Mallene Olsdatter, were approx a century and a half ahead of todays fairly common practice of first having children and decades later deciding to get married !

In addition to the children given in the census that Leif B. links to, Mallene Olsdatter and Rekvold Pedersen also were parents to Martin born 28 Feb 1844, # 164. At the time Mallene was staying at shoemaker Andreas Frederik Olsens house, Briskeby (west part of Oslo) and from the text one may note that this was Mallene's second extramarital child. I think this is a reference to and confirms that  Johan born in Skedsmo 1839 was her first child born out of wedlock.

Akershus, Oslo fylke, Aker i Aker, Ministerialbok nr. 19 (1842-1852), Fødte og døpte 1844, Side 50

Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060301050060

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider

Opprett en konto eller logg inn for å kommentere

Du må være et medlem for å kunne skrive en kommentar

Opprett konto

Det er enkelt å melde seg inn for å starte en ny konto!

Start en konto

Logg inn

Har du allerede en konto? Logg inn her.

Logg inn nå

  • Hvem er aktive   0 medlemmer

    Ingen innloggede medlemmer aktive

×

Viktig Informasjon

Arkivverket bruker cookies (informasjonskapsler) på sine nettsider for å levere en bedre tjeneste. De brukes til bl.a. skjemaoppdateringer og innlogging. Bruk siden som normalt, eller lukk informasjonsboksen for å akseptere bruk av cookies.