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Charles A

Charles Anderson f. 1832 i Vestfold? / Tønsberg?

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Charles A

I am trying to trace the birthplace  for my great grandfather Karl/ Carl Andersen born ca. 1831-1832 with parents August and Elisabeth/ Lisa  Andersen in Vestfold - Tønsberg or the area around. He sailed to Australia via New York on the Emma Jugene  around 1851.

 

We are visiting Norway in 2018 and I would like to visit his region if possible. Does anyone have a suggestions?

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Kristian Hunskaar (privat)

Based on the given names Karl, August and Lisa, I would suggest the possibility that this is a Swedish family, i.e. Karl may have been born in Sweden and later raised in Norway. Many families migrated from Sweden to Vestfold in the 19th century. I may be wrong, as the given names also could be Norwegian, but these three given names in combination would be more common in Sweden than in Norway.

 

It would be of interest to know exactly where you have got your information about Karl and his parents, and also exact spellings etc. Would it be possible to take photo(s) of the document(s)?

Endret av Kristian Hunskaar (privat)

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Charles A

Thank you for your response it is very much appreciated.

 

I have attached a copy of the marriage certificate recorded in Australia in 1856. Unfortunately we do not have any documents from Norway.

 

Charles Anderson marriage certifcate.pdf

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Kristian Hunskaar (privat)

Thanks, that was useful. His place of birth is really Norway, according to this certificate, but what word is the other place name? I'm pretty sure it's not "Tonsberg", as the last letter obviously isn't a g (look at the g in Ridgway and the g in Abigail). I would suggest the place name ends with "...lip", but I can't think of a Norwegian place name that could fit. Perhaps someone else who reads this, has a suggestion?

 

By the way; the father's name seems more like "Angus" than "August"?

 

Both person names and place names may of course have been misspelled by the Australian official.

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Charles A

Once again thank you for your feedback. I very much appreciate you taking the time to respond.

 

Just a couple of points in relation in relation to the place of birth, I think the spelling would have been phonetic and when Charles arrived in Australia in 1856 his English would have been limited with a strong Norwegian accent. I don't think he could write.

 

I have attached his naturalisation papers which lists his place of birth as Tanspur, which I am told sounds like Tonsberg in Norwegian.

 

Do you think this could be correct?

 

 

Charles Anderson - naturalisation.pdf

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Jon Erik Berg-Hansen

This is obviously a tricky one:

I 've searched the parish records for Tønsberg and the neighbouring parishes  Sem / Slagen, Nøtterøy / Tjøme and Stokke for his confirmation (age 14-18) (1845-1849),and a possible listing of this family moving out of any of these parishes 1849-1851 - no luck!

I may have missed something, and there's still the parishes of Ramnes and Andebu to search.

 

I also agree with your "interpretation" resulting in Tønsberg (at least I can't think of anything else).

 

You say he came with his parents - have you got anything on their naturalization?

Endret av Jon Erik Berg-Hansen

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Stine H Kvistad

Hello, Gary

 

I found a bio on the family and the burial-site at Ballarat, Victoria in Jan 1909. 

 

https://billiongraves.com/grave/person/4118669

 

https://web.ballaratcemeteries.com.au/Deceasedsearch/DeceasedDetails.aspx?PersonId=97833&LocationId=26954

 

Perhaps the deathcertificate or obit could give you more info, if availiable. 

 

I read the ships name as "Emma Eugenia", she sailed from Plymuth, but he lists New York as port of departure.

 

http://www.rnbt.id.au/vessels/emmaeugenia.html

 

with regards

 

Stine

 

Ridgway.JPG

emma.JPG

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Lene Benedicte Lauritzen

And you are quite sure his given name was Karl/Carl? 

I wouldn't think it was necessary to change his name if he actually was called Carl, since this name is not uncommon in English speaking countries.  

 

I agree; Tanspur sounds like Tønsberg as he probably would have pronounced it something like "Tønsperr" ("Toensperr").

Endret av Lene Benedicte Lauritzen
Skrivefeil

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Kristian Hunskaar (privat)
13 timer siden, Gary Twomey skrev:

I have attached his naturalisation papers which lists his place of birth as Tanspur, which I am told sounds like Tonsberg in Norwegian.

 

Do you think this could be correct?

 

I agree that "Tanspur" could be a misspelling or phonetic spelling of Tønsberg. The spelling in the marriage certificate - "Tanslip"(?) - puzzles me, though.

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Charles A
13 hours ago, Jon Erik Berg-Hansen said:

This is obviously a tricky one:

I 've searched the parish records for Tønsberg and the neighbouring parishes  Sem / Slagen, Nøtterøy / Tjøme and Stokke for his confirmation (age 14-18) (1845-1849),and a possible listing of this family moving out of any of these parishes 1849-1851 - no luck!

I may have missed something, and there's still the parishes of Ramnes and Andebu to search.

 

I also agree with your "interpretation" resulting in Tønsberg (at least I can't think of anything else).

 

You say he came with his parents - have you got anything on their naturalization?

Thank you for searching those records. My understanding is that he left Norway by himself and his parents stayed so we have no documentation for them.

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Charles A
11 hours ago, Stine H Kvistad said:

Hello, Gary

 

I found a bio on the family and the burial-site at Ballarat, Victoria in Jan 1909. 

 

https://billiongraves.com/grave/person/4118669

 

https://web.ballaratcemeteries.com.au/Deceasedsearch/DeceasedDetails.aspx?PersonId=97833&LocationId=26954

 

Perhaps the deathcertificate or obit could give you more info, if availiable. 

 

I read the ships name as "Emma Eugenia", she sailed from Plymuth, but he lists New York as port of departure.

 

http://www.rnbt.id.au/vessels/emmaeugenia.html

 

with regards

 

Stine

 

Ridgway.JPG

emma.JPG

Hello Stine, Thank you and yes they are the correct burial site details. I have also attached the death certificate and the birth place listed in difficult to understand. It was probably copied across from the marriage certificate.

Also thank you for the Emma Eugenia details and while it is a very good match for the dates he arrived in Australia,  I am not sure why he would said he travelled from New York.

 

 

Death Certificate Charles Anderson.pdf

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Charles A
11 hours ago, Lene Benedicte Lauritzen said:

And you are quite sure his given name was Karl/Carl? 

I wouldn't think it was necessary to change his name if he actually was called Carl, since this name is not uncommon in English speaking countries.  

 

I agree; Tanspur sounds like Tønsberg as he probably would have pronounced it something like "Tønsperr" ("Toensperr").

Hello Lene, I am not sure that his name was Karl/Carl. All of the documentation that we have in Australia states Charles, however I was told that in Norway he would likely to be Karl/Carl as Charles is not a common Norwegian name.

 

Thank you for the suggestion on the likely way he would have pronounced Tonsberg.

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Charles A
11 hours ago, Kjell Halvorsen said:

Would this be same hawker Charles Anderson from Ballarat ? 

Australia, Victoria, Index to Probate Registers, 1841-1989; https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DZZN-TW?cc=1393345&wc=MVK3-82W%3A960373901
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DZZN-TW?i=37&cc=1393345

Thank you Kjell, that is the Charles Anderson we are trying to trace.

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Charles A
10 hours ago, Kristian Hunskaar (privat) said:

 

I agree that "Tanspur" could be a misspelling or phonetic spelling of Tønsberg. The spelling in the marriage certificate - "Tanslip"(?) - puzzles me, though.

Hello Kristian,  I think the earlier spelling of Tanslip was made for the marriage certificate shortly after Charles arrived in Australia. Given his very limited English speaking & written skills at the time he was dependant on the official transcribing the correct name. 

Whereas in the naturalisation papers which were completed over 40 years later and his English would have been far stronger.

 

I am still confused why he said he said he sailed from New York, where as the shipping records show the boat left from Plymouth.

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Jon Erik Berg-Hansen

Checked Andebu and Ramnes parishes also - but no luck!

 

Some emigrants with typical Norwegian names not only "Americanized" their given first names or family-names, but radically changed them 

to fit in.

My wife's grandfather Kittil spent 6-7 years in Canada 1910-1917, and was called Charlie by his colleagues.

 

Could this be a similar case?

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Lene Benedicte Lauritzen
13 timer siden, Gary Twomey skrev:

Hello Lene, I am not sure that his name was Karl/Carl. All of the documentation that we have in Australia states Charles, however I was told that in Norway he would likely to be Karl/Carl as Charles is not a common Norwegian name.

 

Thank you for the suggestion on the likely way he would have pronounced Tonsberg.

Hello Gary

You are absolutely right, there were not many named Charles in Norway in the 19th century, but there were some.  

When it comes to his fathers name, I agree with Kristian in #4 that it looks more like Angus than August.  There were not many Angus in Norway at that time either, but again, there were some.

 

The reason why I asked, is that I was thinking the same as Jon Erik in #16: maybe Charles just chose a name he liked or that this in fact was his given name.

 

Kristian suggested a Swedish connection whith the names August, Lisa and Carl/Karl.  This is absolutely a possibility.  In addition to that, I was thinking that a family of Angus, Elizabeth and Charles might have an Scottish origin.  

 

It's just a thought, but it is peculiar that we aren't able to find anything on him.  If his parents were not Norwegians, they might have belonged to another church than the Norwegian Church.  

 

OK, so I'm not trying to make this more difficult than it already is, I'm just opening up for other possibilities. :)

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Charles A

Once again thank you all for the contributions. It appears it will be a difficult case to solve! 

 

One of Charles other relatives in Australia thought he may have run away from Norway and jumped on a ship.

 

If this is the case it may explain the problems with the names .

 

I really appreciate your efforts.

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Stine H Kvistad

 

Perhaps there is a finding in the local newspapers in Ballarat, on name or adress, familymembers, proffesion, etc

 

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/result?l-state=Victoria&l-title=185&q="charles+anderson"&sortby=dateAsc

 

Larvik innrulleringskontor, F/Fa/L0001: Hovedrulle, 1836-1860, s. 44

These records show sailors signing on and off, and it it often noted if they bailed ship. Date of birth is in column 6.

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/33052/37?indexing=

 

 

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Charles A

Hello Stine, thank you for these resources. I will search through the Larvik innrulleringskontor for any relevant information.

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Charles A

Hello, Since my last posts I have managed to find some more information about my relative who emigrated to Australia from Norway around 1851.

The key points from my research are that :

  1. Charles or Johan Anderson is likely to have left Norway to travel to England in the period from January to June 1851;

   2. Prior to leaving Norway, Charles (Johan) and his father could have been carpenters in the shipyard named Tauslipp near Stavanger.  (This matches with Tauslip mentioned in his marriage in the 1856). So he is unlikely to have come from the Tonsberg area.

3.  Charles Anderson sailed from London to Australia on a ship called the “General Hewitt” in July 1851.

4. Charles Anderson arrived in Sydney Australia around December 1851 and immediately escaped the ship. 

5. On the notice that was listed for the capture of Charles following his escape his name is listed as John (Johan) Anderson. So he would have registered under this name on the ship in England.

6. He probably changed his name to Charles later to avoid capture.

7. At that time there was a gold rush in Australia and he then made his way to the goldfields in Victoria. This is where Charles was married in 1856 and mentions his origins as Tauslip.

8. So while we are still not sure of Charles’ Norwegian name – it appears he left the Tauslipp/Stavanger area in 1851 aged around 19 years.

 9. He was accompanied by another person probably around 15years of age who could have been a cousin.

 

Do you think that this makes sense?

 Is there any way to check the departure records for the Tauslipp/Stavanger area in period from January to June 1851 to see how many young men left for England and what their names were?

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Jon Erik Berg-Hansen

Hi!

Would it be possible for you to link to the documents (2 - 5) mentioned?

 

Jon Erik

Endret av Jon Erik Berg-Hansen

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Charles A

Hi,

please find attached a report prepared by my colleague who is a relative of the Norwegian boy who accompanied Charles Anderson to Australia. It is a very interesting read!

 As you will see my colleague has carried out a lot of research and has done a detailed DNA analysis of himself which shows that his relative who accompanied Charles Anderson was definitely  from the Stavenger area.

As you will see when both Charles and his companion escaped the ship in Sydney they were wanted by the authorities and so had to change their names. They appear to have come to Australia to take part in the Gold Rush that was happening at the time and quickly made their way to the Goldfields. You Norwegians are very determined !

 

My colleague thinks Charles and his relative who used the name of William Roberts in Australia, may have been cousins as Charles was 19 and he was only 15. Unfortunately my colleague has not been able to establish his relative's Norwegian name, but thinks it could have been Pederson.

 

The only way we can think to try and find the Norwegian names and families of both persons is to try and find a list of any boys who sailed from the Stavanger region to England in the  period from January 1851 to June 1851. Does this seem correct?

 

William Roberts September 2017.docx

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Kristian Hunskaar (privat)
17 timer siden, Gary Twomey skrev:

2. Prior to leaving Norway, Charles (Johan) and his father could have been carpenters in the shipyard named Tauslipp near Stavanger.  (This matches with Tauslip mentioned in his marriage in the 1856). So he is unlikely to have come from the Tonsberg area.

 

[...]

 

Do you think that this makes sense?

 Is there any way to check the departure records for the Tauslipp/Stavanger area in period from January to June 1851 to see how many young men left for England and what their names were?

 

Tau is a location north-east of Stavanger. There is a company called Tau slipp og båtbyggeri AS (webpabe: www.tauslipp.no), but this company was established in 1995. The Norwegian word "slipp" means slipway.

 

I don't think Tauslipp was a name in the 19th century. Even though it was, it wouldn't make sense to report a shipyard as someone's birthplace. The birthplace would likely be reported as Tau (often written Tou).

 

Seaman rolls for Stavanger start in 1860: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/db/browse?archives[]=2008&start_year=&end_year=&text=

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Kristian Hunskaar (privat)

The report states: They both came from Rogaland in the SW corner of Norway. William from Stavanger the capital of Rogaland, where his father was a ships pilot, and Charles from Tau, a village close to Stavanger, where he and his father were both carpenters in the shipyard named Tauslipp.

 

I understand that William Robert's birthplace is listed as Stavanger in his marriage record, but what makes it a fact that Charles came from Tau and worked at a shipyard named Tauslipp? Have you and your colleague found some new documents?

 

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