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Carl-Henry Geschwind

Where did Salve Thomasen (married 1743 in Mandal, Vest-Agder) come from?

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Carl-Henry Geschwind

One of the ancestors I am researching, Salve Thomæsen, became engaged to Anne Gjerusdatter Landøy (in Halse sogn, Vest-Agder) on 26 December 1742 and married her 27 June 1743. At that time he was "enroulleret" (i.e., registered for the military but not actively serving as a soldier) and living "ved Kirken" (that is, near Halse church in what is now the town of Mandal). 

 

At the baptism of his first three children (1743-1749), Salve was listed as "Salve Schomager ved Kirken" - that is, Salve the shoemaker living near the church. In 1752 his wife Anne bought her parental farm at Landøy from her stepfather's estate, and thereafter Salve and Anne lived at Landøy -  in a baptismal record from 1755, he was called "Salve Landøe". Salve Thomasøn Landøe was buried 22 April 1785, aged 75 years (thus born about 1710).

 

I have not seen any records so far that might indicate where Salve Thomasen came from. As far as I can tell, there are no Thomasens or Thomasdatters serving as witnesses at the baptisms of his children. However, there does seem to be a close connection with a family of Bjørnsønner - Stephan, Brøngild, Tarald, Thomas, and Anders Bjørnsen either serve as witnesses at baptisms of Salve's children or have children at whose baptism Salve serves as a witness. I have no idea where this family came from, or how Salve might have been related to them (perhaps they were simply neighbors "ved Kirken"?).

 

Here in the U.S. (without a Norwegian IP address) I do not have access to "Mandal bys historie" (2 vols., https://www.nb.no/items/28bf58d467b6ccc3f178c9108d3cbacf and https://www.nb.no/items/3f6b164b785fefd4820c15c2d8079b72). Is there anything in this town history about Salve Thomasen? Does anyone perhaps have another clue on where Salve Thomasen might have come from, or how he was related to the Bjørnsønner (and who they were)?

 

Thank you for any assistance!

 

Links for Salve Thomasen:

Engagement and marriage: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/9598/65 (right side, middle entry)

Baptism of first child (Thomas, baptised Dom 19 p. Trin 1743): https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/9594/17

Baptism of second child (Giert, baptised Dom 24 p. Trin 1746): https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/9594/20

Baptism of third child (Benth, baptised Fest 3 Pent. 1749): https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/9595/6

Baptism of fourth child (Maren, baptised Dom 24 p. Trin 1751): https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/9595/9 (very top of right-hand side)

Baptism of fifth child (Kirsten, baptised 12 Martii 1755): https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/9595/14

Baptism of last child (Johanne, baptised Dom Sexag 1765): https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/9595/35

Burial: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/9601/45 (left-hand side, last entry under April)

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Jarl B Haagensen

Salve Thommesen born 1729?  may be son of Thommes Sørensen at Almeli in Holum (1696-1760) and Guri Salvesdatter Klepp (1696-1733). Ref. Holum bygdebok page 206.

See also probate 1738 (no age given for Salve)

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/36329/11476

Endret av Jarl B Haagensen

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Harald Søren Storaker

Marrying 1743, then the year born 1729 according to Holum bygdebok is probably wrong. But probably right person.
He also probably had a sister Signe, who was the godmother by the baptism in 1743. And Salve was a witness at the baptism of her daughter Kirsten in 1734: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070612650009
Signe was probably older, and is not mentioned in Holum bygdebok, page 206.

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Carl-Henry Geschwind
3 hours ago, Jarl B Haagensen said:

Ref. Holum bygdebok page 206

 

2 minutes ago, Harald Søren Storaker said:

Holum bygdebok, page 206

 

A great lead! Unfortunately, without a Norwegian IP address, I do not have access to the Holum bygdebok (https://www.nb.no/items/994f85a03d4e7f39fc67b2d264d6a254). Would it be possible for someone to quote this page for me or post a copy? Thanks!

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Harald Søren Storaker

 

holum side 205.jpg

holum side 206.jpg

Endret av Harald Søren Storaker

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Carl-Henry Geschwind

Thank you, Harald - that is very helpful!

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Carl-Henry Geschwind
9 hours ago, Harald Søren Storaker said:

He also probably had a sister Signe, who was the godmother by the baptism in 1743. And Salve was a witness at the baptism of her daughter Kirsten in 1734

 

This is a great lead, and I agree that Signe Thomædatter is almost certainly Salve Thomæsen's sister. It is not only that Signe was godmother at the baptism of Salve's first child, and that Salve was a witness at the baptism of Signe's first child. Signe and Salve also appeared together at a baptism in 1741 (Signe as godmother, Salve as witness - baptism of Elen on 13 Jan 1741, https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/9594/15). One of the witnesses at the baptism of Signe's second child in 1735 (Thomas, baptised Dom. Latare - https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/9594/10) was Aanon Jørgensen, who would later be one of the guarantors at Salve's engagement. Another witness in 1735 was Signe Jensdatter, who would also be a witness at the baptism of Salve's first child; and another witness at the baptism of Signe's first child in 1734, Hans [Ingebretsen] Schredder, would be a witness at the baptism of Salve's fourth child Maren in 1751. So Salve and Signe were obviously part of a very tightly knit network - and given their shared patronym almost certainly siblings.

 

9 hours ago, Harald Søren Storaker said:

Marrying 1743, then the year born 1729 according to Holum bygdebok is probably wrong. But probably right person.

 

But given that Signe is almost certainly my Salve's sister, I have my doubts over whether my Salve can be the Salve Thomasen listed in the Holum bygdebok. I agree that there seems to be no support for the birth-year 1729 given in the bygdebok (which would immediately rule him out). The other information given in the bygdebok comes from the probate referenced by Jarl in post #2 (the actual probate is at https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/24412/725). The probate says that Salve is "unmyndig" in 1738 (that is, under 20 years of age - born after 1718). Given that Guri Salvesdatter had a daughter Siri with her first husband who was 21 in 1738 (that is, born in about 1717), this probably means that this Salve's older brother Omund must have been born no sooner than 1718, and Salve cannot have been born much before 1719. He also cannot have been born much after 1719, if he was to be sufficiently old to serve as a baptismal witness in 1734.

 

The bigger problem to me is that the 1738 probate clearly shows that this Guri Salvesdatter did not have a daughter with Thomas Sørensen named Signe. I guess it is possible that Thomas could have had Signe with his first wife (that is, before marrying Guri Salvesdatter), which would make Signe a half-sister to Salve. But given that Thomas was born in 1696, I am having a bit of trouble envisioning him having a daughter who could then have a child in 1734 (in my experience, Norwegians at that time waited until their 20s to marry). Also, my Salve's first two daughters were named Maren and Kirsten; Kirsten was the name of his wife Anne's mother, so Maren may have been the name of Salve's own mother. As far as I can tell, the names Guri and Gunvor do not appear among my Salve's children.

 

I also note that none of the other siblings of the Salve Thomasen from Holum (or his father Thomas Sørensen, who was still alive in the early 1750s) appear at the baptisms of my Salve's children or those of Signe Thomasdatter.

Endret av Carl-Henry Geschwind

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Jarl B Haagensen

For the record: The mentioned Aanen Jørgensen lived at Sanden in Mandal and was married to Signe Jonsdatter Monen, Holum. Hans Ingebretsen lived in Mandal and was married to a Kirsten Svendsdatter.  

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Linda Wathne

Jeg er ikke i tvil om at Salve Thomassen kom fra Almelia i Holum, men jeg tror han er født mellom Ommund og Gunvor. 1720 passer bedre pga vielsen i 1743, for da ville han være 23 år og "halvmyndig", og flere giftet seg ved den alderen. Fullmyndig var 25 år.

Hans morfar, Salve Klepp, eide bla. part i laksenot både på Rødberg og Landøy (!), så det var forbindelser til Landøy fra før. ( Info fra Holum Gardshistorie) Da er det ikke så rart at Salve fant seg kone derfra.  Det er også forbindelser til flere andre gårder, bl.a. Smeland i Holum og Hjorteland i Halse. Sjekker man barnedåpene med faddere, finner man et sted at Salve Thomassen er fadder for nettopp et barn fra Hjorteland. Jeg husker ikke hvilket årstall det var.

 

Når det gjelder Signe, tviler jeg på hun er en søster. Hun har sannsynligvis tjent hos Salve og har kanskje ( temmelig sikkert?) slektskap med ham, men jeg tror det er fjernere enn søskenforhold. Om hun da ikke er en søster født utenfor ekteskap...det er sikkert også en mulighet og kan forklare hvorfor hun ikke er nevnt i skifter. Men da bør vel noen ha blitt bøtelagte, - det har jeg ikke sjekket ut. 🙂

 

Mvh

Linda

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Carl-Henry Geschwind
On 9/14/2018 at 7:11 PM, Linda Wathne said:

Sjekker man barnedåpene med faddere, finner man et sted at Salve Thomassen er fadder for nettopp et barn fra Hjorteland. Jeg husker ikke hvilket årstall det var.

 

Yes, you are right, a Salve Thomasen was witness for baptism of a child of Torgie Hiorteland. But that was on Dom. Jubilate 1731 [that is, 15 April 1731]. See https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070612650006, left side, fourth from top.

 

But how can someone born about 1720 be a baptismal witness in 1731? Don't you at least need to be confirmed in order to serve as a fadder?

Endret av Carl-Henry Geschwind

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