Johan Carl Palmstrom Death Certificate

[Mark Peterson]

I’m after the death certificate for a Johan Carl Palmstrom born in Arendal, Norway in 1829. His father was Peter Andreas Palmstrom and mother was Elisabeth Marie Larsdatter / Thomasen. He wasn’t on the 1865 Census for Norway and he had a Confirmation in 1844. He did travel to either Kragero and/or Kristiansand in about 1849-1855. Thx Mark Peterson 

[Ann-Mary Engum]

 

 

[Mark Peterson]

Hi Ann-Mary Engum. So if nobody can find the death certificate for Johan Carl ( Pedersen ) Palmstrom, who was born in Arendal, Norway in 1829, then do you think he might be the Johan Carl Palmstrom ( From the Johan Mattsson Lange Palmstrom nobility family ) that left Norway in about 1854/55 and came to Australia via USA? Thx Mark Peterson

[Kristian Hunskaar (privat)]

2 minutter siden, Mark Peterson skrev:

Hi Ann-Mary Engum. So if nobody can find the death certificate for Johan Carl ( Pedersen ) Palmstrom, who was born in Arendal, Norway in 1829, then do you think he might be the Johan Carl Palmstrom ( From the Johan Mattsson Lange Palmstrom nobility family ) that left Norway in about 1854/55 and came to Australia via USA? Thx Mark Peterson

 

It's extremely time consuming to look through every possible Norwegian churchbook in order to find the death and burial of Johan Carl Palmstrøm, born 1829 in Arendal. One would have to go through lists of burials for a long time period and a huge geographical area. It's a needle in a haystack, and though it's true that nobody has found it yet, one should ask how many has actually tried?

[Mark Peterson]

2 hours ago, Kristian Hunskaar (privat) said:

 

It's extremely time consuming to look through every possible Norwegian churchbook in order to find the death and burial of Johan Carl Palmstrøm, born 1829 in Arendal. One would have to go through lists of burials for a long time period and a huge geographical area. It's a needle in a haystack, and though it's true that nobody has found it yet, one should ask how many has actually tried?

Fair enough. I thought it would be a bit easier to find a Johan Carl Palmstrom Born in 1829 from Arendal, Norway and dying in either Kragero or Krsitiansand Norway, between 1844 and 1864. Oh yeah, how many people have actually tried to search the death records for JC Palmstrom? I’m just trying to solve the dead end I have in my family tree. Also why doesn’t  FamilySearch or ancestry.com  show up any Johan Carl Palmstrom deaths? Thx Mark Peterson

Endret August 1, 2019 av Mark Peterson

[Ann-Mary Engum]

12 timer siden, Mark Peterson skrev:

I’m after the death certificate for a Johan Carl Palmstrom born in Arendal, Norway in 1829. His father was Peter Andreas Palmstrom and mother was Elisabeth Marie Larsdatter / Thomasen. He wasn’t on the 1865 Census for Norway and he had a Confirmation in 1844. He did travel to either Kragero and/or Kristiansand in about 1849-1855. Thx Mark Peterson 

 

"Enke Elisabeth Marie Palmstrøm" died 15/5-1901

No 15

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/151/293

 

Dødsfallsprotokoll:

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/35294/8

Endret August 1, 2019 av Ann-Mary Engum

[Ann-Mary Engum]

Til hjelpere.

Johan Carl Palmstrøm var ikke nevnt i skiftet etter faren Peter Andreas Palmstrøm i 1858.

 

Her står navna på alle 7 barna til Peter Andreas Palmstrøm og Elisabeth Marie. 

 

"Johan Carl 21-3-1829 Born Arendal and moved to Kragero April 1854 
Gurine laurette 22-4-1831 
Peter Martin 21-8-1833 
Marie Catherine 21-12-1835 
Georg Nicolai 18-9-1841 married Hansine Andrea Aslaken 4-4-1871 
Elise matilde 5-9-1844 married Ole Laurits Odegard 23-2-1866 
Georgine Nicoline / Nicoline Georgine 10-2-1847 married Iver Olsen 23-8-1866 "

http://www.norwayheritage.com/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1649

 

----

 

Peter Andreas Palmstrøm døde  21 mars 1858

Nr 10

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/774/324

 

6 barn er nevnt i skiftet. 

Johan Carl Palmstrøm er ikke nevnt. 

 

Skifteprotokoll

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view

 

 

 

Endret August 1, 2019 av Ann-Mary Engum

[Kristian Hunskaar (privat)]

11 timer siden, Mark Peterson skrev:

Also why doesn’t  FamilySearch or ancestry.com  show up any Johan Carl Palmstrom deaths?

 

I suppose neither FamilySearch or ancestry.com cover all Norwegian churchbooks. Also, his name may have been spelled incorrectly, or he may have gone by another name. Moreover, if he died at sea, he may have escaped mention in the churchbooks.

[Mark Peterson]

Ok thx Ann-Mary Engum and Kristian Hunskaar. Looking at death year between 1849 and 1854 in Kragero or Kristiansand, Norway. So he could be the Johan Carl Palmstrom ( From the nobility family of Johan Mattsson Lange Palmstrom ) who their website www.palmstrom.net mentions as leeving Norway in 1854/55 and came to Australia via USA?  PS: My Charles Peterson was born in 1829 in Arendal, Norway and changed his name in USA, before coming to Australia. Most likely from Johan Carl Pedersen Palmstrom. Thx Mark Peterson.

Endret August 1, 2019 av Mark Peterson

[Berit Knudsen]

Peter Andreas born 22/3 1803, Gustav 6/9 1804 and Marthe Cathrine 7/10 1806 in Kristiansand.

Their parents: batchelor and carpenter Johan Peter Palmstrøm, 39 y. in 1801, married 12/6 1802 in Kristiansand to the girl Marie Cathrine Pedersdatter Staal.

Marie Cathrine died 30 y. old 27/4 - 1/5 1809 Kristiansand.

 

Gustav, b.1804, also carpenter, was married 29/10 1836 in Arendal, and a Marthe Palmstrøm was "konfirmert" in Arendal in 1821.

 

I can not find any of this names in the familytree of Johan Mattson Lange Palmstrøm

[Mark Peterson]

Thx Berit Knudsen. That’s because some of the Palmstrom men had children outside of their marriage. So that’s where I think my Johan Carl Pedersen Palmstrom bloodline comes from. Johan Carl Palmstrom’s Grandfather Johan Peter Palmstrom, originally came from Sweden. He was born in about 1762/63 and died in Kristiansand, Norway in 1823. So one of my male ancestors changed his name back to his Grandfathers or Grandmothers surname of Palmstrom. Thx Mark Peterson 

[Kristian Hunskaar (privat)]

1 time siden, Mark Peterson skrev:

Ok thx Ann-Mary Engum and Kristian Hunskaar. Looking at death year between 1849 and 1854 in Kragero or Kristiansand, Norway. So he could be the Johan Carl Palmstrom ( From the nobility family of Johan Mattsson Lange Palmstrom ) who their website www.palmstrom.net mentions as leeving Norway in 1854/55 and came to Australia via USA?  PS: My Charles Peterson was born in 1829 in Arendal, Norway and changed his name in USA, before coming to Australia. Most likely from Johan Carl Pedersen Palmstrom. Thx Mark Peterson.

 

You have probably given the information somewhere else, but could you please give a wrap up of what is known about Charles Peterson from Australian sources?

[Egil Johannessen]

20 minutter siden, Kristian Hunskaar (privat) skrev:

You have probably given the information somewhere else, but could you please give a wrap up of what is known about Charles Peterson from Australian sources?

 

https://www.geni.com/people/Peter-Andreas-Palmstrøm/6000000019196236740

27.juni 2015 SEJ; http://www.norwayheritage.com/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1649 Dear World, My name is Mark William Peterson of Melbourne Victoria Australia. I am after the Peterson family tree from the time before 21st March 1829 Arendal - Norway. Charles Peterson was born in Arendal - Norway on the 21st March 1829, and died in Rapanyup Victoria on the 23rd February 1895,at the age of 67.He married Ellen Cavanaugh or " Cavanagh " in Troy New York on the 22nd August 1855,U.S.A. Ellen was born in Thurles County,Tipperary Island about 1839 - 40.She died on August 1903 at Rapanyup Victoria. Her fathers name was John and her mothers name was Mary. Charles'could be the son of Peter Andreas Palmstrom and Elisabeth Marie Larsdatter. Their other childrens names are: Gurine Laurette born 22nd April,1831. Peter Martin born 21st August,1833. Marie Cathrine born 21st December,1835. Georg Nicolai born 18th September,1841. Elise Mathilde born 5th September,1844. Georgine Nicoline born 10th February 1847. Elise married Ole Laurits Odegard on the 23rd February 1866,in the parish of Arendal. Georgine Nicoline( according to the birth/baptismal records it was Nicoline Georgine ) Palmstrom married Iver Olsen on the 23rd August 1866,in the parish of Arendal. Georg Nicolai Palmstrom and Hansine Andrea Aslaksen married on the 4th April,1871 in the parish of Arendal. Charles and Ellen arrived in Melbourne on the 24th January 1856.The ship was named Gertrude and arrived from New York. It was a 715 Ton ship and their were only 16 passengers on it. Charles and Ellen's childrens names were: Caroline,Dora,Ingebour-Josephine,Annie-Marie,Charlotte,Ellen,John,Thomas,Nelse Oscar,Michael-Albert,Gertrude,William ( died soon after birth ), and Clement Neice ( also known as Carl ). Clement Neice ( Carl ) Peterson born on the 11th February 1859 ,at Mount Doran,Victoria. He died in 1932 in Fitzroy Melbourne aged 73 years old. In 1902 he married Jameslea Louisa Hannett who was born in 1884 and died in 1931 at Northcote Victoria. They had 3 children: Clement Charles born in 1903. Albert John born in 1907. Vincent Paul born in 1912. These 3 children might be the best avenue to finding my Peterson family tree. Hope to hear from a relative soon!!! regards Mark William Peterson.

 

From Mark Peterson site on Ancestry

Endret August 2, 2019 av Egil Johannessen

[Egil Johannessen]

 

[Mark Peterson]

28 minutes ago, Kristian Hunskaar (privat) said:

 

You have probably given the information somewhere else, but could you please give a wrap up of what is known about Charles Peterson from Australian sources?

 

29 minutes ago, Kristian Hunskaar (privat) said:

 

You have probably given the information somewhere else, but could you please give a wrap up of what is known about Charles Peterson from Australian sources?

 

Pretty much what Egil Johannessen placed below. We know the family originally came from Sweden and we know that Charles Peterson ( Johan Carl Pedersen Palmstrom ) was Born in Arendal, Norway in 1829, it’s on his Australian Death Certificate. 

[Mark Peterson]

10 minutes ago, Egil Johannessen said:

 

 

Only problem is, the church burnt down and all records were destroyed. But I have just emailed them to see what they can find, so thx very much for that info Egil. Thx Mark Peterson

Endret August 2, 2019 av Mark Peterson

[Egil Johannessen]

13 timer siden, Mark Peterson skrev:

and we know that Charles Peterson ( Johan Carl Pedersen Palmstrom ) was Born in Arendal, Norway in 1829, it’s on his Australian Death Certificate. 

 

Is it transcribed as Arendal or do you actually have a copy of the death certificate? If the latter is the case could you scan and enclose it here?

Endret August 2, 2019 av Egil Johannessen

[Egil Johannessen]

15 timer siden, Mark Peterson skrev:

Looking at death year between 1849 and 1854 in Kragero or Kristiansand, Norway.

 

På 1.8.2019 den 13.04, Mark Peterson skrev:

and dying in either Kragero or Krsitiansand Norway, between 1844 and 1864

 

In case of death it must have occurred after April 1854 since he moved to Kragerø that year - see Randi's post # 5

 

Endret August 2, 2019 av Egil Johannessen

[Kristian Hunskaar (privat)]

21 timer siden, Mark Peterson skrev:

Pretty much what Egil Johannessen placed below. We know the family originally came from Sweden and we know that Charles Peterson ( Johan Carl Pedersen Palmstrom ) was Born in Arendal, Norway in 1829, it’s on his Australian Death Certificate. 

 

Does his Australian Death Certificate say that his original name was Johan Carl Pedersen Palmstrom and that the family originally came from Sweden?

[Mark Peterson]

34 minutes ago, Kristian Hunskaar (privat) said:

 

Does his Australian Death Certificate say that his original name was Johan Carl Pedersen Palmstrom and that the family originally came from Sweden?

No it doesn’t say his original name was Johan Carl Palmstrom. His name in Australia was Charles Peterson. My fathers aunt told him as a child that our family were originally from Sweden and then Norway. On his children’s baptism certificates, it says he was born in Arendal in 1829. 

Endret August 2, 2019 av Mark Peterson

[Mark Peterson]

9 hours ago, Egil Johannessen said:

 

 

In case of death it must have occurred after April 1854 since he moved to Kragerø that year - see Randi's post # 5

 

Ok, so I only have to look for a Johan Carl Palmstrom’s death in Kragero or Kristiansand, Norway, between May 1854 - 1865 then. 

Endret August 2, 2019 av Mark Peterson

[Kristian Hunskaar (privat)]

It is extremely important to be accurate, i.e. to distinguish what information is from written sources (and which written sources), what information is family tradition and what information is just assumptions. If we are to help, we really need to able to distinguish these things.

 

For example, you say that the baptism certificate says that he was born 1829, but it's not. It says that he was 27 years old (in 1856). Thus, 1829 is a calculated birth year, and you can't be sure that it's correct, at least not based on this baptism certificate. He may have been born 1828, though still 27 in early 1856. The age 27 can also be inaccurate.

 

Above, it is stated that he died 23rd February 1895 at the age of 67. Is this what the death certificate actually says? In that case, his birth year could be calculated as 1827 or 1828, depending on whether he had turned 67 in 1895 or was to turn 68 in 1895.

 

As far as I understand:

• The person in question is in Australian sources only known as Charles Peterson.
• Family tradition says his family originated from Sweden and Norway.
• Charles Peterson and his wife Ellen arrived in Melbourne 24th January 1856 from New York on the ship Gertrude.
• It can be established that the couple were married in Troy, New York, 22nd August 1855.
• Their oldest child Caroline was born 14th December 1855, and on her birth certificate it is stated that Charles Peterson was a miner, and that he was 27 years of age and born in Arendal, Norway.

 

Moreover, I understand that there's no real evidence that Johan Carl (Petersen) Palmstrøm was identical with Charles Peterson. Instead, it is just an assumption that the two were identical. Johan Carl (Petersen) Palmstrøm has drawn attention because 1) he has a name that could be changed to Charles Peterson, 2) he was born in Arendal, 3) he was born at a suitable time, 4) his family seems to be of Swedish origin. However, you can't rule out the possibility that other persons could fit with Charles Peterson.

 

Let's question the information that Charles Peterson was born in "Arendal". 1) Could "Arendal" refer to other places than the city of Arendal? Yes, for instance there is a parish called Arnadal, which was commonly written Arendal at the time. Arndal is also a farm name in Åmot parish in Hedmark, but I think we can rule out that possibility. 2) Did the official who wrote the baptism certificate perceive Charles Peterson's place of birth correctly, and did he write it correctly? Charles Peterson probably gave the information orally, and so this could be an inaccurate piece of information, unless it can be verified by other sources. 3) Did Charles Peterson really name his place of birth, or did he name the place where he grew up or the place from where he left Norway? There are several examples that Norwegians in America named the nearest city as their place of birth, although they actually was born somewhere else.

 

My point is: It is not established as a 100 % reliable fact that Charles Peterson was born 1829 in the city of Arendal. Both year of birth and place of birth may be inaccurate. Hence, there might be other candidates to fill the role as Charles Peterson. Keep in mind that Ann-Mary Engum above has found the probate of Peter Andreas Palmstrøm (1858), which doesn't mention Johan Carl Palmstrøm at all. This strongly indicates that Johan Carl Palmstrøm was dead, or at least that his family was convinced that he was dead. Thus, if there's no evidence that Johan Carl Palmstrøm was still alive he 1858, he should be considered dead at the time.

 

Your strategy seems to be to find Johan Carl Palmstrøm's death, and if you're not able to find it, you want to conclude that Johan Carl Palmstrøm was identical with Charles Peterson. I would warn against such a strategy, because the absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence).

Endret August 3, 2019 av Kristian Hunskaar (privat)

[Kristian Hunskaar (privat)]

1 time siden, Mark Peterson skrev:

Ok, so I only have to look for a Johan Carl Palmstrom’s death in Kragero or Kristiansand, Norway, between May 1854 - 1865 then. 

 

No, he could have moved several times, so his death may have taken place elsewhere. And although he has not been identified in the 1865 census, he could be absent in the census for other reasons. The census in itself is not 100 % complete, and he may hide behind a misspelled name.

[Mark Peterson]

Thx Kristian. The www.palmstrom.net website mentions a Johan Carl Palmstrom leaving Norway in about 1854/55 and coming to Australia Via USA. So I have searched in Australia for any sort of certificate for Johan Carl Palmstrom and nothing at all. Just seems to fit the Charles Peterson, that might’ve changed his name in USA from JCP. Thx Mark Peterson

[Mark Peterson]

2 hours ago, Kristian Hunskaar (privat) said:

It is extremely important to be accurate, i.e. to distinguish what information is from written sources (and which written sources), what information is family tradition and what information is just assumptions. If we are to help, we really need to able to distinguish these things.

 

For example, you say that the baptism certificate says that he was born 1829, but it's not. It says that he was 27 years old (in 1856). Thus, 1829 is a calculated birth year, and you can't be sure that it's correct, at least not based on this baptism certificate. He may have been born 1828, though still 27 in early 1856. The age 27 can also be inaccurate.

 

Above, it is stated that he died 23rd February 1895 at the age of 67. Is this what the death certificate actually says? In that case, his birth year could be calculated as 1827 or 1828, depending on whether he had turned 67 in 1895 or was to turn 68 in 1895.

 

As far as I understand:

• The person in question is in Australian sources only known as Charles Peterson.
• Family tradition says his family originated from Sweden and Norway.
• Charles Peterson and his wife Ellen arrived in Melbourne 24th January 1856 from New York on the ship Gertrude.
• It can be established that the couple were married in Troy, New York, 22nd August 1855.
• Their oldest child Caroline was born 14th December 1855, and on her birth certificate it is stated that Charles Peterson was a miner, and that he was 27 years of age and born in Arendal, Norway.

 

Moreover, I understand that there's no real evidence that Johan Carl (Petersen) Palmstrøm was identical with Charles Peterson. Instead, it is just an assumption that the two were identical. Johan Carl (Petersen) Palmstrøm has drawn attention because 1) he has a name that could be changed to Charles Peterson, 2) he was born in Arendal, 3) he was born at a suitable time, 4) his family seems to be of Swedish origin. However, you can't rule out the possibility that other persons could fit with Charles Peterson.

 

Let's question the information that Charles Peterson was born in "Arendal". 1) Could "Arendal" refer to other places than the city of Arendal? Yes, for instance there is a parish called Arnadal, which was commonly written Arendal at the time. Arndal is also a farm name in Åmot parish in Hedmark, but I think we can rule out that possibility. 2) Did the official who wrote the baptism certificate perceive Charles Peterson's place of birth correctly, and did he write it correctly? Charles Peterson probably gave the information orally, and so this could be an inaccurate piece of information, unless it can be verified by other sources. 3) Did Charles Peterson really name his place of birth, or did he name the place where he grew up or the place from where he left Norway? There are several examples that Norwegians in America named the nearest city as their place of birth, although they actually was born somewhere else.

 

My point is: It is not established as a 100 % reliable fact that Charles Peterson was born 1829 in the city of Arendal. Both year of birth and place of birth may be inaccurate. Hence, there might be other candidates to fill the role as Charles Peterson. Keep in mind that Ann-Mary Engum above has found the probate of Peter Andreas Palmstrøm (1858), which doesn't mention Johan Carl Palmstrøm at all. This strongly indicates that Johan Carl Palmstrøm was dead, or at least that his family was convinced that he was dead. Thus, if there's no evidence that Johan Carl Palmstrøm was still alive he 1858, he should be considered dead at the time.

 

Your strategy seems to be to find Johan Carl Palmstrøm's death, and if you're not able to find it, you want to conclude that Johan Carl Palmstrøm was identical with Charles Peterson. I would warn against such a strategy, because the absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence).

Yes, but just because he wasn’t on a 1858 probate, is that enough proof that he was dead. Could it simply mean they thought he was dead or they didn’t know where he was. So, he may of got on a ship and sailed to maybe USA and then later to maybe Australia. But I understand what you are saying about CP and JCP might not be the same person, but my mother looked at this years ago and paid money to a researcher in Norway, that came up with JCP as being the most likely connection. Thx Mark Peterson

Endret August 3, 2019 av Mark Peterson