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Johan Carl Palmstrom Death Certificate

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Mark Peterson
Posted (edited)

Dates are all over the place for Charles Peterson.

Edited by Mark Peterson

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Dag T. Hoelseth
4 timer siden, Ann-Mary Engum skrev:

 

Unavailable

 

"

Sorry, there is a problem

We could not locate the item you are trying to view.

Error code: 2S328/1" 

Har ingen problemer med å få opp PDF-ene ...

 

DTH

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Ann-Mary Engum
2 minutter siden, Dag T. Hoelseth skrev:

Har ingen problemer med å få opp PDF-ene ...

 

DTH

 

Det er fordi han nå har redigert innlegg. 

Du får vel ikke opp noe i sitatet i innlegg 70?

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Mark Peterson
Posted (edited)
On 8/3/2019 at 9:31 PM, Egil Johannessen said:

Why did you state "it's on his Australian Death Certfificate" ? Is it correct to understand it is not, given the information in the previous post's?

 

Sorry, Arendal, Norway and being 67 when he died in 1895. Does not mention the birth year. But 67 away from 1895 = 1828. Thx Mark Peterson - PS: This 3rd PDF, is for the 1st child born Ammy ( Anna Maria ) Peterson, so details about 1855 marriage is correct, but not Charles Peterson’s age or birth date. 

Scan 4 Aug 2019 (16).pdf Scan 4 Aug 2019 (15).pdf

Scan 5 Aug 2019 (2).pdf

Edited by Mark Peterson

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Egil Johannessen

2835817bf593f4abb4f2c80216288f14.png

 

På 3.8.2019 den 2.37, Kristian Hunskaar (privat) skrev:

Above, it is stated that he died 23rd February 1895 at the age of 67. Is this what the death certificate actually says? In that case, his birth year could be calculated as 1827 or 1828, depending on whether he had turned 67 in 1895 or was to turn 68 in 1895.

 

The informant in 1895 was his daughter and remember 1895 is way afar from i.e. 1856. Birth place; Andil / Aredil ?  76f59be749ed50df40def146eed7e548.png

 

På 3.8.2019 den 2.37, Kristian Hunskaar (privat) skrev:

Let's question the information that Charles Peterson was born in "Arendal". 1) Could "Arendal" refer to other places than the city of Arendal? Yes, for instance there is a parish called Arnadal, which was commonly written Arendal at the time. Arndal is also a farm name in Åmot parish in Hedmark, but I think we can rule out that possibility. 2) Did the official who wrote the baptism certificate perceive Charles Peterson's place of birth correctly, and did he write it correctly? Charles Peterson probably gave the information orally, and so this could be an inaccurate piece of information, unless it can be verified by other sources. 3) Did Charles Peterson really name his place of birth, or did he name the place where he grew up or the place from where he left Norway? There are several examples that Norwegians in America named the nearest city as their place of birth, although they actually was born somewhere else.

 

a0967d9a855886a9b58f571292918f86.png

 

This is the only birth reg. (Ammy's) where the marriage year is stated as 1855, on all the others the marriage year is 1856.

 

Mark, you say; "but not CP's age or birth date"

 

There's no birth date, and you are assuming that CP = Johan Carl Palmstrøm. There's so far as I (and others) can see no evidence to prove that' the case.

 

 

 

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Mark Peterson
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Egil Johannessen said:

2835817bf593f4abb4f2c80216288f14.png

 

 

The informant in 1895 was his daughter and remember 1895 is way afar from i.e. 1856. Birth place; Andil / Aredil ?  76f59be749ed50df40def146eed7e548.png

 

 

a0967d9a855886a9b58f571292918f86.png

 

This is the only birth reg. (Ammy's) where the marriage year is stated as 1855, on all the others the marriage year is 1856.

 

Mark, you say; "but not CP's age or birth date"

 

There's no birth date, and you are assuming that CP = Johan Carl Palmstrøm. There's so far as I (and others) can see no evidence to prove that' the case.

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Egil Johannessen said:

2835817bf593f4abb4f2c80216288f14.png

 

 

The informant in 1895 was his daughter and remember 1895 is way afar from i.e. 1856. Birth place; Andil / Aredil ?  76f59be749ed50df40def146eed7e548.png

 

 

a0967d9a855886a9b58f571292918f86.png

 

This is the only birth reg. (Ammy's) where the marriage year is stated as 1855, on all the others the marriage year is 1856.

 

Mark, you say; "but not CP's age or birth date"

 

There's no birth date, and you are assuming that CP = Johan Carl Palmstrøm. There's so far as I (and others) can see no evidence to prove that' the case.

 

 

 

Ok and firstly thx to all for your help and interest. So, I would say, the marriage date would be 1855 in Troy New York, because they arrived in Melbourne, Australia in January 1856. Also the 1st child Ammy Anna Maria Peterson’s birth certificate, should be the one to go by, as Egil has stated, that the earliest one would most likely be correct. PS: Why did most certificates have Ellen Cavanagh Peterson’s name, DOB and place of birth correct and not Charles details? Also I can agree with you that I’m not at all 100% certain about Charles Peterson formally being Johan Carl Pedersen Palmstrom from Arendal, Norway Born in 1828/29. Just going by what researchers told my mother about 20 years ago. It was either JCP or a Peter Madsen from Arendal, Norway. Also, if you google earth the names Andild, Andilol, etc, you wont find any place in Norway with those names, so I’m thinking it is Arendal, Norway for place of birth. Thx Mark Peterson. 

Edited by Mark Peterson

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Egil Johannessen
Posted (edited)
16 timer siden, Mark Peterson skrev:

so I’m thinking it is Arendal, Norway for place of birth. 

 

Kristian has tried to explain to you that Arendal does not necessarily means Arendal City. It could be Barbu, Tromøy, Austre -  & Vestre Moland, Nedenes, Hisøy etc. SEE MAP.

Anyone born in and around these areas when giving their birth location could have stated Arendal. There are numerous of examples of emigrants from smaller areas/regions giving their birth location similarly to other places. Let me give you an example. I have several emigrants in my family, they came from (born in) Stavern, Helgeroa, Kjose, Kvelde, Svarstad etc. They all gave their birth location as Larvik. SEE MAP.

 

I have looked at all the birth reg's. you have provided, and POB is written Arendal/Arindal/Arndale by the registrar, however that itself is no proof CP was born in Arendal (see above & Kristian's reasoning). He could even been born far away from Arendal and moved there as a child, still giving his POB as Arendal.

 

Regarding CP's birth year from all the birth reg's. we are none the wiser. It varies from 1828 to 1833, depending on the date of registration & what month CP was born (which we don't know).

 

You will find several candidates born (1827 - 1834) just in Aust-Agder (I emphasize this is just an example and limited to FS search engine). SEE SEARCH FS.

Edited by Egil Johannessen

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Mark Peterson
14 minutes ago, Egil Johannessen said:

 

Kristian has tried to explain to you that Arendal does not necessarily means Arendal City. It could be Barbu, Tromøy, Austre -  & Vestre Moland, Nedenes, Hisøy etc. SEE MAP.

Anyone born in and around these areas when giving their birth location could have stated Arendal. There are numerous of examples of emigrants from smaller areas/regions giving their birth location similarly to other places. Let me give you an example. I have several emigrants in my family, they came from (born in) Stavern, Helgeroa, Kjose, Kvelde, Svarstad etc. They all gave their birth location as Larvik. SEE MAP.

 

I have looked all the birth reg's. you have provided, and POB is written Arendal/Arindal/Arndale by the registrar, however that itself is no proof CP was born in Arendal (see above & Kristian's reasoning). He could even been born far away from Arendal and moved there as a child, still giving his POB as Arendal.

 

Regarding CP's birth year from all the birth reg's. we are none the wiser. It varies from 1828 to 1833, depending on the date of registration & what month CP was born (which we don't know).

 

You will find several candidates born (1827 - 1834) just in Aust-Agder (I emphasize this is just an example and limited to FS search engine). SEE SEARCH FS.

 

Ok thx I understand what you are all saying. Also I’m not trying to match Charles Peterson with Johan Carl Palmstrom for the sake of it, it’s just like I said before, a researcher told us that info 20 years ago. Thx Mark Peterson.

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Egil Johannessen
3 minutter siden, Mark Peterson skrev:

a researcher told us that info 20 years ago. 

 

Again, that doesn't mean it's correct.

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Egil Johannessen
Posted (edited)
3 timer siden, Mark Peterson skrev:

PS: Why did most certificates have Ellen Cavanagh Peterson’s name, DOB and place of birth correct and not Charles details?

 

It's impossible to know, on the form it is CP's name given as the informant.

 

About Ellen, how sure are you the Ellen you have is the correct one? I see from the children's birth reg's. her age indicates she was  born in 1837 - 1838. Did she give her exact birth date, location and parents on any documents?

 

I find at least 2 other candidates born 1838 & 1839 in the same area. Also on the children's birth reg's. it states POB as Thurles, Tipperary, Ireland.

Edited by Egil Johannessen

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Mark Peterson
24 minutes ago, Egil Johannessen said:

 

Again, that doesn't mean it's correct.

 

25 minutes ago, Egil Johannessen said:

 

Again, that doesn't mean it's correct.

Ok thx. Yes maybe he was wrong in what info he gave my mother 20 years ago. I can accept that. Thx Mark Peterson

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Mark Peterson
Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Egil Johannessen said:

 

It's impossible to know, on the form it is CP's name given as the informant.

 

About Ellen, how sure are you the Ellen you have is the correct one? I see from the children's birth reg's. her age indicates she was  born in 1837 - 1838. Did she give her exact birth date, location and parents on any documents?

 

I find at least 2 other candidates born 1838 & 1839 in the same area. Also on the children's birth reg's. it states POB as Thurles, Tipperary, Ireland.

I think that’s all we have to go by. Whatever is on birth certificates. 1838 Ellen Cavanagh Thurles Tipperary Ireland Father John and Mother Mary. Thx Mark Peterson

Edited by Mark Peterson

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Egil Johannessen
Posted (edited)

Since they married (you have stated 22. august 1855 - btw. how do you know this exact date?) in August 1855, one would think they knew each other some time before they married. That again would indicate CP must have been in the US at least a few months and should be able to locate in the census of 1855 New York, if he lived there.

 

https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/New_York,_State_Census,_1855_-_FamilySearch_Historical_Records

 

https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1937366

 

CP could of course have immigrated before and possibly be found on immigration list's or 1850 Census.

 

https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1401638

Edited by Egil Johannessen

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Egil Johannessen
Posted (edited)
6 minutter siden, Mark Peterson skrev:

Father John and Mother Mary.

 

Where does it state her parent's name?

 

On Ancestry you have the mother's name as Brigid Barragry and Ellen born January 1839, however the sources you have enclosed states born & baptized 1840 .

Edited by Egil Johannessen

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Mark Peterson
6 minutes ago, Egil Johannessen said:

 

Where does it state her parent's name?

 

I will find out for you tomorrow from my mother. I think on Ellen Peterson’s death certificate or newspaper obituary. Thx Mark Peterson

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Egil Johannessen
9 minutter siden, Egil Johannessen skrev:

On Ancestry you have the mother's name as Brigid Barragry and Ellen born January 1839, however the sources you have enclosed states born & baptized 1840 .

 

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Mark Peterson
Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Egil Johannessen said:

Since they married (you have stated 22. august 1855 - btw. how do you know this exact date?) in August 1855, one would think they knew each other some time before they married. That again would indicate CP must have been in the US at least a few months and should be able to locate in the census of 1855 New York, if he lived there.

 

https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/New_York,_State_Census,_1855_-_FamilySearch_Historical_Records

 

https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1937366

 

CP could of course have immigrated before and possibly be found on immigration list's or 1850 Census.

 

https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1401638

 

Im thinking this Charles Peterson. https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?givenname=Charles&surname=Peterson&birth_place=Norway&birth_year_from=1826&birth_year_to=1834&collection_id=1401638

 

My fathers uncle, told his son that he left Norway and went to New York and to California to find gold, so maybe he came back to New York State and met Ellen Cavanagh in Troy, New York, married in August 1855 and then came to Melbourne, Australia in January 1856. Also he lived near the goldfields in 1856 onwards. He was also a Miner on some of his children’s  birth certificates. Thx Mark Peterson

 

im thinking this is Ellen Cavanagh 17 years old in 1855 and in Troy, New York, USA working as a servant/Maid. Then along comes a Charles Peterson and in a few months the get married in Troy and then catch the train or boat to New York and Maybe late November catch the ship named Gertrude to Melbourne, Australia in January 1856. Thx Mark Peterson. 

https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?givenname=Ellen&surname=Cavanagh &birth_year_from=1837&birth_year_to=1841&residence_place=Troy&collection_id=1937366

 

Edited by Mark Peterson

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Mark Peterson
Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Egil Johannessen said:

 

Yes, we think that Bridget Barragry was her mother and a John Cavanagh was her father, but we don’t think that they ever married. We then think Bridget left or died during the Irish Famine or years before and John married a lady named Mary. That’s who maybe raised Ellen and that’s why she names her as her mother. Bridget Barragry and John Cavanagh also had a son named John in about 1840/42. Still not married and I can’t find a marriage certificate for them either.  Thx Mark Peterson

 

PS: The parents of Ellen Cavanagh are on her death certificate. John and Mary.

Edited by Mark Peterson

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Mark Peterson
38 minutes ago, Egil Johannessen said:

Since they married (you have stated 22. august 1855 - btw. how do you know this exact date?) in August 1855, one would think they knew each other some time before they married. That again would indicate CP must have been in the US at least a few months and should be able to locate in the census of 1855 New York, if he lived there.

 

https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/New_York,_State_Census,_1855_-_FamilySearch_Historical_Records

 

https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1937366

 

CP could of course have immigrated before and possibly be found on immigration list's or 1850 Census.

 

https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1401638

 

Scan 5 Aug 2019 (4).pdf

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Kristian Hunskaar (privat)

I haven't had time to follow this thread for a few days, and I can see there has been substantial activity. I'll just make a few comments.

 

På 3. august 2019 den 2.49, Mark Peterson skrev:

Thx Kristian. The www.palmstrom.net website mentions a Johan Carl Palmstrom leaving Norway in about 1854/55 and coming to Australia Via USA. So I have searched in Australia for any sort of certificate for Johan Carl Palmstrom and nothing at all. Just seems to fit the Charles Peterson, that might’ve changed his name in USA from JCP. Thx Mark Peterson

 

As the Palmstrom website doesn't give any sources, could it be that the information on the website is based on information given by someone who has believed that Charles Peterson was Johan Carl Palmstrøm? That is, the assumption that Charles Peterson was Johan Carl Palmstrøm has materialized as a fact on the Palmstrøm website? In that case, we risk a fallacy based on circular reasoning.

 

På 3. august 2019 den 2.56, Mark Peterson skrev:

Yes, but just because he wasn’t on a 1858 probate, is that enough proof that he was dead. Could it simply mean they thought he was dead or they didn’t know where he was. So, he may of got on a ship and sailed to maybe USA and then later to maybe Australia. But I understand what you are saying about CP and JCP might not be the same person, but my mother looked at this years ago and paid money to a researcher in Norway, that came up with JCP as being the most likely connection. Thx Mark Peterson

 

We don't know how capable this researcher really was. If he/she unilaterally focused on the city of Arendal and the year 1829, and if he/she didn't know about the 1858 probate, then it's not surprising that Johan Carl Palmstrøm would be suggested as the most likely candidate.

 

I wouldn't completely write Johan Carl Palmstrøm off, but I think we all have seen how inaccurate Charles Peterson's age is given, and I have argued that "Arendal" may refer to an undefined district around the city of Arendal. Then we have the probate which really calls for strong evidence to counter the logical conclusion that Johan Carl Palmstrøm was dead by 1858.

 

The California miner Charles Peterson seems very interesting, especially as Mark Peterson now refers to another family tradition of gold mining in California. And if Charles Peterson really was in El Dorado County in California in 1850, then he most likely was not identical with Johan Carl Palmstrøm, who was still in Norway in 1854.

 

It would please me a lot if Mark Peterson was able to find irrefutable evidence for Charles Peterson's identity, but I'm afraid it's a difficult task. I'm pretty sure that any evidence won't be found in Norwegian archives, because I find it hard to imagine a recording in Norwegian archives about "Johan Carl Palmstrøm, who now lives in Australia and has changed his name to Charles Peterson". One could hope for an Australian recording that is specific on his date of birth, but it seems to me that the records commonly give a more or less accurate age and nothing more.

 

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Mark Peterson
1 hour ago, Kristian Hunskaar (privat) said:

I haven't had time to follow this thread for a few days, and I can see there has been substantial activity. I'll just make a few comments.

 

 

As the Palmstrom website doesn't give any sources, could it be that the information on the website is based on information given by someone who has believed that Charles Peterson was Johan Carl Palmstrøm? That is, the assumption that Charles Peterson was Johan Carl Palmstrøm has materialized as a fact on the Palmstrøm website? In that case, we risk a fallacy based on circular reasoning.

 

 

We don't know how capable this researcher really was. If he/she unilaterally focused on the city of Arendal and the year 1829, and if he/she didn't know about the 1858 probate, then it's not surprising that Johan Carl Palmstrøm would be suggested as the most likely candidate.

 

I wouldn't completely write Johan Carl Palmstrøm off, but I think we all have seen how inaccurate Charles Peterson's age is given, and I have argued that "Arendal" may refer to an undefined district around the city of Arendal. Then we have the probate which really calls for strong evidence to counter the logical conclusion that Johan Carl Palmstrøm was dead by 1858.

 

The California miner Charles Peterson seems very interesting, especially as Mark Peterson now refers to another family tradition of gold mining in California. And if Charles Peterson really was in El Dorado County in California in 1850, then he most likely was not identical with Johan Carl Palmstrøm, who was still in Norway in 1854.

 

It would please me a lot if Mark Peterson was able to find irrefutable evidence for Charles Peterson's identity, but I'm afraid it's a difficult task. I'm pretty sure that any evidence won't be found in Norwegian archives, because I find it hard to imagine a recording in Norwegian archives about "Johan Carl Palmstrøm, who now lives in Australia and has changed his name to Charles Peterson". One could hope for an Australian recording that is specific on his date of birth, but it seems to me that the records commonly give a more or less accurate age and nothing more.

 

Tha again Kristian. Yes, I just found that Charles Peterson in El Dorado in 1850 USA census the other day, but I can’t find him in any other census onwards in USA. When I saw it, I remembered an email that another researcher had sent Arild Palmstrom, creator or helper of the Palmstrom website. The email says, a father told his son that Charles Peterson came to Australia after he went to New York and then to California to search for gold. So, the Ballarat, Victoria, Australia gold rush was where he next lived in 1856. On some of the children’s birth certificates it states Charles Peterson has a MINER, so that’s either from El Dorado or Ballarat, Victoria goldfields. Also, it wasn’t me who gave www.palmstrom.net info about JCP going to Australia via USA in about 1854/55. So I still think JCP Born 1829 could’ve gone to USA and then Australia and changed his name in the USA, but no proof at all, as yet. Thx to all, for all your help and guidance in this mystery. Looking forward for more help in solving this CP &/or JCP mystery. Thx Mark Peterson

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Egil Johannessen
Posted (edited)
2 timer siden, Kristian Hunskaar (privat) skrev:

As the Palmstrom website doesn't give any sources, could it be that the information on the website is based on information given by someone who has believed that Charles Peterson was Johan Carl Palmstrøm? That is, the assumption that Charles Peterson was Johan Carl Palmstrøm has materialized as a fact on the Palmstrøm website? In that case, we risk a fallacy based on circular reasoning.

 

For your (& others) information; I've contacted the admin of the website. He has responded, however he's currently away on holiday and thus no access to the data. I've asked him to make contact when he returns.

Edited by Egil Johannessen

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Mark Peterson
Posted (edited)

I have since found a Carl Severine Peterson that was born on 12th February 1833 in Tromoy, Aust-Agder, Norway, right next to Arendal. But what age does it say on Charles Peterson’s death certificate? It could be a 67 or amended from a 67 to a 61. If 61 then it would fit 1833 year of birth. Also he was 23, ( I think it’s written as 23) on the ship named Gertrude in January 1856, also makes Charles Peterson’s birth year 1833. What do you all think? Thx Mark Peterson

Scan 7 Aug 2019 (4).pdf Scan 7 Aug 2019 (3).pdf Scan 7 Aug 2019 (2).pdf

Edited by Mark Peterson

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Egil Johannessen
Posted (edited)

Johan Carl Palmstrøm died 7th December 1855, "carpenter apprentice", 26 1/2 years old.

 

Entry no 14:

Aust-Agder county, Arendal in Arendal, Parish register (official) no. A 6 (1855-1868), Deceased and buried 1855, Page 323, Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060208010323

 

Entry no 15 in the parish register copy:

Aust-Agder county, Arendal in Arendal, Parish register (copy) no. B 2 (1838-1860), Deceased and buried 1856, Page 261, Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070329650346
 

Edited by Egil Johannessen

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Ann-Mary Engum
7 minutter siden, Egil Johannessen skrev:

Johan Carl Palmstrøm died 7th December 1855, "carpenter apprentice", 26 1/2 years old - entry no 14:

Aust-Agder county, Arendal in Arendal, Parish register (official) no. A 6 (1855-1868), Deceased and buried 1855, Page 323, Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060208010323

 

Entry no 15 in the parish register copy:

Aust-Agder county, Arendal in Arendal, Parish register (copy) no. B 2 (1838-1860), Deceased and buried 1856, Page 261, Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070329650346
 

 

Flott, Egil!  🙂

 

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