Johan Carl Palmstrom Death Certificate

[Mark Peterson]

4 hours ago, Egil Johannessen said:

 

That's accurate.

Yes I know the reseacher that gave info to www.palmstrom.net was Australian, but the reseacher my mother used 20-25 years ago was from Norway. That’s also accurate. Thx Mark Peterson

[Mark Peterson]

Thx everyone for your great help to eliminate JCP as my gg Grandfather. Now I have to start again and search for a Charles Peterson from Norway and born in about 1827-1834 who went to USA and married and then came to Australia. Thx Mark Peterson 

[Anton Hagelee]

Mark, several people on this site as well as Norway Heritage have encouraged you to pursue a DNA test as an aid in your search for Norwegian ancestors. I think you should seriously try that route. My experience with FTDNA and Norway project leads  me to believe that it could prove useful to you. 

 

Family Tree DNA (FTDNA) is a company that performs DNA analysis for a fee. 

 

https://www.familytreedna.com

 

 Norgesprosjektet FTDNA is a Norwegian group that offers information on DNA for those with Norwegian ancestry as well as a data base for those who have obtained a DNA analysis. 

 

They have a group on Facebook as well as a website. The website is in Norwegian but has some pages in English. They have a volunteer staff available by email that could be of help to you. 

 

http://www.norwaydna.no

 

Try this link as a starting point. Note the Admin group on the far left are there as contacts. 

 

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/norway/about

 

 

 

Endret August 8, 2019 av Anton Hagelee

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

5 timer siden, Anton Hagelee skrev:

Mark, several people on this site as well as Norway Heritage have encouraged you to pursue a DNA test as an aid in your search for Norwegian ancestors. I think you should seriously try that route. My experience with FTDNA and Norway project leads  me to believe that it could prove useful to you. 

 

 

There are a number of questions to this.

 

The first is:

- whom should be compared?

You can find whether A and B have a common patrilinear anscestor. Here A is Mark, but how do you find B?

 

Another:

- What is the probability that a male have patrilinear decendents after 5-7 generations?  Not all men have sons.

 

[Anton Hagelee]

Good questions, 

 

First one deals with the type of test. If you do a Y-DNA 67 (DNA test of 67 markers) your comparison will be with someone in the various data bases attached either to the company performing the Y test or to someone in the Norway Project data base or both. After you complete the test the testing company will provide you with a list of matches. You will be given a Name of the match, Earliest Known Ancestor of the match, and Y-DNA haplogroup. You will be looking for a match with a Genetic Distance (GD) of 0 or 1 at the largest. Anything more than that will be too far back in time to be of value. 

 

In my case I received 10 or so matches of GD  4, 6 and 7. All of the Names of the matches were clearly Englishmen and their Earliest Known Ancestors were also English. Genetic distance of 4 or greater takes one back to a shared ancestor in the Viking time or later. Not of value to me for comparing to my paper genealogical trail. So about two years went by and then I received a new match and this one was GD of 1. Meaning I matched the new Name in 66 of the 67 markers. The Name was a Norwegian living in Oslo and his Earliest Know Ancestor was Syvert Torjussen Herefoss, b 1590, Birkenes A-AGD. This was also the same man that I had listed for my Earliest Known Ancestor. The new match and I communicated by email and determine how we were related. 

 

Syvert Torjussen had several children including a son Torjus. Torjus had several children including Syvert Torjusson Retterstøl my sixth great grandfather and another son named Jøl (or Ljøl) Torjussen Kylland the sixth great grandfather of my new cousin.

 

https://www.geni.com/people/Torgius-Kylland/6000000006589041441?through=6000000008392605414

[Anton Hagelee]

Your second question is about the necessity to have a male line for a Y-DNA test. That is true and you are counting on your ancestors having many children and at least some of them were males. 

 

A second type of DNA test is the autosomal test. That is more often used when you already have a candidate or candidates and want to see if the candidates are truly related.  In Marks case that might have come into play if you were trying to see if there was a relationship between some descendant of the Palmstrøm family and Mark. I have not done a autosomal test and thus am not really well enough versed to discuss the test in any depth, but there are a lot of articles on the internet that cover the subject.

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

4 timer siden, Anton Hagelee skrev:

Good questions, 

 

 

I am not sure that you understood the essence of the questions. (Alternatively, you tried to talk away the challenges.)

To confirm a relation to Mark's gggrandfather "Charles", a patrilinear descendent of a male close relative to "Charles" has to be found.

This will be someone descending 5-7 generations after a brother or father's brother to "Charles".

Although the mentioned companies has a number of people in their database, it is a tiny number compared to all Norwegians.

He is not looking for "some" match, but a particular one.

If he actually got a match, how to distinguish between the gggrandfather and  another common anscestor with some other distance?

Again: How does Mark find his (potential) relative to be tested?

 

The quotation marks for "Charles" indicates another complexity, that this most likely was not the form of his name in Norway.

 

4 timer siden, Anton Hagelee skrev:

Your second question is about the necessity to have a male line for a Y-DNA test. That is true and you are counting on your ancestors having

many children and at least some of them were males.

Your answer is about anscestors - and yes, everyone has a father, a father's father, etc.

The question was about descendants. Some men have sons, son's sons, etc. However, many men have only daughters, or no offspring at all.

If we assume that, say, 60% has sons that grow up, there will be 0.6 x 0.6 = 0.36 =36 % that have son's sons.  0.6 x 0.6 x 0.6= 0.22 = 22 % that

have son's son's sons, etc.

Even if "Charles" had a brother, there is just a small chance that there actually is someone to test at all for Y-DNA (which was your suggestion).

 

Autosomal tests are effective in the nearest generations. After 5-7 generations, the probabilities of a match are minute, even if there is a relation.

(According to testing companies estimates). And you still have to find this relative.

 

 

 

[Mark Peterson]

22 minutes ago, Ivar S. Ertesvåg said:

 

I am not sure that you understood the essence of the questions. (Alternatively, you tried to talk away the challenges.)

To confirm a relation to Mark's gggrandfather "Charles", a patrilinear descendent of a male close relative to "Charles" has to be found.

This will be someone descending 5-7 generations after a brother or father's brother to "Charles".

Although the mentioned companies has a number of people in their database, it is a tiny number compared to all Norwegians.

He is not looking for "some" match, but a particular one.

If he actually got a match, how to distinguish between the gggrandfather and  another common anscestor with some other distance?

Again: How does Mark find his (potential) relative to be tested?

 

The quotation marks for "Charles" indicates another complexity, that this most likely was not the form of his name in Norway.

 

Your answer is about anscestors - and yes, everyone has a father, a father's father, etc.

The question was about descendants. Some men have sons, son's sons, etc. However, many men have only daughters, or no offspring at all.

If we assume that, say, 60% has sons that grow up, there will be 0.6 x 0.6 = 0.36 =36 % that have son's sons.  0.6 x 0.6 x 0.6= 0.22 = 22 % that

have son's son's sons, etc.

Even if "Charles" had a brother, there is just a small chance that there actually is someone to test at all for Y-DNA (which was your suggestion).

 

Autosomal tests are effective in the nearest generations. After 5-7 generations, the probabilities of a match are minute, even if there is a relation.

(According to testing companies estimates). And you still have to find this relative.

 

 

 

Thx Ivar. So, should I just get a Autosomal test? Also should I get my father to do it and not myself?

[Mark Peterson]

5 hours ago, Anton Hagelee said:

Your second question is about the necessity to have a male line for a Y-DNA test. That is true and you are counting on your ancestors having many children and at least some of them were males. 

 

A second type of DNA test is the autosomal test. That is more often used when you already have a candidate or candidates and want to see if the candidates are truly related.  In Marks case that might have come into play if you were trying to see if there was a relationship between some descendant of the Palmstrøm family and Mark. I have not done a autosomal test and thus am not really well enough versed to discuss the test in any depth, but there are a lot of articles on the internet that cover the subject.

Thx Anton. Appreciate your time and knowledge. Thx Mark 

Peterson

Endret August 9, 2019 av Mark Peterson

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

1 minutt siden, Mark Peterson skrev:

Thx Ivar. So, should I just get a Autosomal test? Also should I get my father to do it and not myself?

 

If you really find a potential relative, who may be a decendant of "Charles"'s parents (any lineage - but after 5-8 generations), you can check

DNA-test provider's estimated probability for a match. I think (from the top of my head) it is about 1% - even when the relation is real

(i.e. about 99% probability that there will be no match, even with a relation).

 

Your choice...

[Egil Johannessen]

Mark Peterson;

 

You should adjust your family tree on Ancestry (and other trees you may have, i.e. Geni). As per now it still portrays Johan Carl Palmstrøm = Charles Peterson which is incorrect and misleading.

 

 

 

You should also update discussions in various forums you have started regarding JCP/CP. I've posted in another one I found on NH -  http://www.norwayheritage.com/snitz/topic.asp?whichpage=5.6&TOPIC_ID=6901#67265

 

Here's one from Geni  -  https://www.geni.com/discussions/199495

Endret August 9, 2019 av Egil Johannessen

[Mark Peterson]

1 hour ago, Egil Johannessen said:

Mark Peterson;

 

You should adjust your family tree on Ancestry (and other trees you may have, i.e. Geni). As per now it still portrays Johan Carl Palmstrøm = Charles Peterson which is incorrect and misleading.

 

 

 

You should also update discussions in various forums you have started regarding JCP/CP. I've posted in another one I found on NH -  http://www.norwayheritage.com/snitz/topic.asp?whichpage=5.6&TOPIC_ID=6901#67265

 

Here's one from Geni  -  https://www.geni.com/discussions/199495

 

Yes I will when I pay my subscription again. Otherwise I can’t change family trees until I sign up again.Thx. Mark Peterson

Endret August 9, 2019 av Mark Peterson

[Egil Johannessen]

1 time siden, Mark Peterson skrev:

Yes I will when I pay my subscription again. Otherwise I can’t change family trees until I sign up again.Thx. Mark Peterson

 

According to Ancestry, you can still edit your tree (i.e.adding/deleting etc.)

 

Ancestry® Accounts after Cancellation  - https://support.ancestry.com/s/article/Accounts-after-Cancellation
Once your subscription is canceled, you'll still have an account with Ancestry® as a registered guest. Registered guest accounts are free and provide you with access to many resources on the site.

 

Family trees
Unless you delete them, any trees you’ve created in your account will remain on the site whether or not you have a subscription.

 

As a registered guest, you’ll be able to do the following with your tree:

Adding and removing people and photos
Adding, deleting, and editing names, dates, and other facts
Managing your tree settings
Inviting friends and family to view your tree

Endret August 9, 2019 av Egil Johannessen

[Mark Peterson]

Ok, ancestry.com family trees fixed up now. Thx Mark Peterson

Endret August 9, 2019 av Mark Peterson

[Egil Johannessen]

12 minutter siden, Mark Peterson skrev:

Nup, no family trees are under my TREE TAB now???? Thx Mark Peterson

 

I don't understand what you mean!

 

Who's this tree then?

[Mark Peterson]

12 minutes ago, Egil Johannessen said:

 

I don't understand what you mean!

 

Who's this tree then?

 

It’s ok, I have now deleted all reference to Johan Carl Palmstrom and his family from my tree, thx.

Endret August 9, 2019 av Mark Peterson

[Egil Johannessen]

3 minutter siden, Mark Peterson skrev:

I have now deleted all reference to Johan Carl Palmstrom and his family from my tree, thx.

 

Good!

 

You should do the same on Geni as well - https://www.geni.com/people/Johan-Peterson/6000000089896231317

[Egil Johannessen]

Do you have another tree on Ancestry?  -  https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/158455950/person/142087590912/facts

 

Endret August 9, 2019 av Egil Johannessen

[Mark Peterson]

17 minutes ago, Egil Johannessen said:

Do you have another tree on Ancestry?  -  https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/158455950/person/142087590912/facts

 

 

Yes, all fixed now. Just one Peterson family tree now, thx Mark Peterson 

[Ann-Mary Engum]

Navnet bør fjernes! 

 

Han het ikke Johan Carl Petersen (Palmstrøm)! 

 

Han står kun som Charles Peterson i de kilder er som er funnet! 

 

 

 

 

Oppdatert idag

 

 

Johan Carl Petersen (Palmstrøm) Engelsk (standard): Charles Peterson
Også kjent som:	"Johan Carl Pedersen"
Fødselsdato:	mellom ca. 1826 og 1834
Fødested:	Arendal, Arendal, Aust-Agder, Norway
Død:	28. Februar 1895 (57-73)  Rupanyup, Victoria, Australia
Begravet:	Rupanyup, VIC, Australia
Nærmeste familie:	Ektemann til Ellen Cavanagh  Far til Nelse Oscar Peterson  Bror av Peter Martin Palmstrøm; Gurine Laurethe Petersdatter Palmstrøm; Georg Nicolai Palmstrøm; Marie Palmstrøm; Elisebeth Mathilde Ødegaard og 1 til
Yrke:	Miner
Administrert av:	Mark Peterson
Sist oppdatert:	i dag

 

https://www.geni.com/people/Johan-Carl-Petersen/6000000089896231317

 

Geni

Åpne diskusjoner om Johan Carl Petersen

Diskusjoner relatert til Johan Carl Petersen.

 

"

Thx Mark

 

Mark Peterson

I dag kl 4:11 a.m

Thx for everyone’s help, but just found out that Johan Carl Pedersen Palmstrom can’t be my GG Grandfather, because he died in 1855 in Norway, therefore didn’t go to USA and then settle in Australia. Thx MarkPeter"

 

----

 

Denne siden til Arild Palmstrøm bør også fjerne info om at Johan Carl Palmstrøm dro til Australia. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://palmstrom.net/AP/english/english_text.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjKnbmRg_bjAhXuk4sKHfqaC94QFjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw2QgAI570tBrqKVQwBfG82b

 

 

 

 

 

arild@palmstrom.net

Endret August 9, 2019 av Ann-Mary Engum

[Egil Johannessen]

1 time siden, Ann-Mary Engum skrev:

Denne siden til Arild Palmstrøm bør også fjerne info om at Johan Carl Palmstrøm dro til Australia. 

 

Det vil blir gjort såsnart admin er tilbake fra ferie (iflg. mail jeg fikk fra admin).

Endret August 9, 2019 av Egil Johannessen

[Egil Johannessen]

Mark P.

These are still in need of correction:  Ancestry   -   Geni

 

 

 

GENI

Endret August 11, 2019 av Egil Johannessen

[Egil Johannessen]

You also have a tree on Ancestry Sweden in need of correction   -   https://www.ancestry.se/family-tree/person/tree/158455950/person/142101156109/facts

 

[Egil Johannessen]

På 9.8.2019 den 16.14, Ann-Mary Engum skrev:

Denne siden til Arild Palmstrøm bør også fjerne info om at Johan Carl Palmstrøm dro til Australia. 

 

Dette er nå fjernet  -  http://palmstrom.net/AP/english/english_text.pdf

[Mark Peterson]

On 8/8/2019 at 4:48 AM, Egil Johannessen said:

 

Gammel tråd (2004) - men Mark bør legge inn JCP's død likevel.

 

On 8/8/2019 at 10:28 AM, Egil Johannessen said:

 

That's accurate.

 

 

Hi Egil. Stupid question, maybe, but could there of been 2 people from Arendal area of Norway that were born around 1826-1833 named Johan Carl (Pedersen) Palmstrom and ONLY 1 of them died in December 1855, as you found and the other one did go to USA and then onto Australia. Thx Mark Peterson