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Mary Gilbert

I am researching family history and need some help.  I cannot figure out some of the words in the entry for Anne Torine - born March 9,1868 (baptized April 13, 1868). Looks like father is Peder Olesen, mother is Karoline Andersdatter) but I can't figure out the word after the mom's name and the ?sponsor? information has me completely baffled.  The link for the page is:

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/8517/84894/23

Thank you for any and all help,

Mary Gilbert

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Kristian_Vestli

Hi Mary,

 

Verbatim, the text for the parents read: Hd: Peder Olsen og Karoline Andreasd: Kindseie

Hd is an abbreviation for Husmand (modern spelling husmann) which means he did not own the land he was working. He had the right to work the land, and in return he had to work a certain amount of time each year for the main farm.

Andreasd: is an abbreviation for Andreasdatter

Kindseie means that the land he worked was owned by the main farm Kind.

 

The sponsors are Maren Olsd: Opsal, Oline Olsd: ibid., Helge Helgesen ibid., Edvard Andersen  Skjærd:, Ole Andreasen Hollerud

 

Like for the parents, each individual's place of living is noted after their name. Skjærd. is an abbreviation for Skjærdalen.

 

Regards,

Kristian Vestli

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Mary Gilbert

Thank you!  

I have a question regarding the farm names and family names.  If I understand the naming traditions in Norway correctly, if someone lived on a farm property, like Kind or Solli, their last name would have been Kind or Solli for census purposes only (to identify where they lived), but their patronymic was their last name for life.  Then if they moved to another area that was part of a different farm, their last name would change to that of the new farm. In 1923 that was changed, and "family" names were set and patronymics like Pedersdatter were changed to Pedersen/Peterson (as an example) and became the family name, or the family could choose to retain the farm name as a last name. Am I on the right track?

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Mary Gilbert

I found the death record for Anne Thorine Pdersdatter, and I if I understand the record, she died 3/3/1896, it was reported 3/8 and she was buried 3/15.  Her husband was Kristen Johannesen.  She was born in 1868.  I can't figure out the rest of it.

Can anyone help me?

The link is below. She is the 4 name from the bottom of the page.

 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/4187/23355/39

 

Thank you,

Mary Gilbert

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Even Stormoen

3/3 | 8/3 | 15/3 | gift Kone [married wife] Anne Thorine Pedersdatter | Sliberiarb. Kristen Johannessen Engen | 1868 |-|-| Hole (Skjærdalen) | Svarverud | Bronchit | Ja | Ja |

 

She died on March 3, funeral held the 8th and buried the 15th (Not sure if I translated the latter two correctly.) Her husband was Kristen Johannessen. She was born at Hole (Skjærdalen) and lived at Svarverud. Cause of death: Bronchitis. A doctor has been summoned, and the death reported.

 

 

BTW: You are right about the norwegian naming traditions. Except the farm names were not for census purposes only. Both the ‹clergy› in the church books and the judge in probates e.g. used the ‹address›. As well as orally, people in between.

 

 

All the best

Edited by Even Stormoen
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Even Stormoen

Trying to be more specific about the «Begravelse» [ I translated it as funeral] and «Jordfæstelse» [ I translated it as burial]. Well, «begravelse» can be both funeral and burial. Jordfestelse (or Jordpåkastelse) is a ritual performed at the grave by the priest. And could, of various reasons, sometimes be performed on a later occasion than the burial/funeral itself.

Hence the three columns, dead, buried, «jordfæsted».

 

All the best

Edited by Even Stormoen
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Else B. Rustad
3 timer siden, Even Stormoen skrev:

 [married wife]

 

Blir ikke dette litt "smør på flesk"?

Wife kan bety både kone og hustru, men gift er hun likevel...

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Mary Gilbert

Could this phrase be because their first child was born out of wedlock? Both of the other 2 children appear to have been born after marriage (the father is referred to as Sliberiab?), although I have yet to find a record of a marriage between Kristen Johannesen and Anne Thorine Pedersdatter.

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Even Stormoen
58 minutter siden, Else B. Rustad skrev:

Blir ikke dette litt "smør på flesk"?

Wife kan bety både kone og hustru, men gift er hun likevel...

 

Så absolutt «smør på flesk» 🙂 Prøvde bare å være relativt ‹bokstavtro›. – «gift Kone« = «married Wife». Så dette må vel nesten presten ta skylden for . . . 😉

 

 

Mvh

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Even Stormoen
1 time siden, Mary Gilbert skrev:

Could this phrase be because their first child was born out of wedlock? <snip>

 

If you are referring to the phrase: «Married Wife» – I don't think so. The correspondence above between Else B. and me (in norwegian, sorry) was about that ‹funny› expression. If you are a wife it goes without saying that you are married. But that was what the priest wrote. So I translated it accordingly.

 

All the best

 

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Even Stormoen
1 time siden, Else B. Rustad skrev:

I would have translated this as "married woman"...

 

Thank you Else B!

 

That is definitely a much better translation. To bring out the meaning.

 

But why then didn't the priest use «Gift Kvinne»? Or similar. Could an unmarried adult woman be called «Kone»? I mean, why would he need to clarify that this «Kone» was married? 

 

I am clearly missing something here. Sorry.

 

All the best

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Even Stormoen
6 minutter siden, Else B. Rustad skrev:

Men du, Even er mye flinkere i engelsk enn det jeg er, så...

 

Det skal du ikke være for sikker på, jfr. det ovenstående . . . 😉

 

Mvh

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Mary Gilbert

Thank you both.  I have tried the Google Translate for these phrases, but that is only as good for me as my interpretation/guess of what the letters are. For that I need some knowledge of Norwegian, which I do not have.  You are saving me countless hours of trial and error, switching out letters one at a time.  I appreciate it so much more than I can tell you.

Mary

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Mary Gilbert

So I see, in the birth records of the 3 children, that the parents are Kristen Johannessen and Anna Thorine Pedersdatter.  I have found Anna's birth record, but I cannot seem to locate a Kristen whose father was Johannes born in any of the Norderhov or Hole records.  I tried starting in 1853 and went through 1858.  (In some records his date of birth is 1855 and some have 1857.)   Is it possible that his name was spelled with a Ch instead of K at birth?  I cannot find any boy children named Kristen with a K.  In all of the census, birth and death records it is spelled with a K.

Thank you,

Mary

Edited by Mary Gilbert
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Mary Gilbert

I finally found the marriage record for Kristen & Anne Thorine.  Theirs is the second marriage recorded in the attached link.  I think that it says that they were both born in Hole, he in 1855, she in 1868.  I think it says that the father of the groom was Johannes something (I cannot figure that out) and the father of the bride was Peder Olesen.  Beyond that information, I can't quite figure it out. 

 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/4187/23366/20

 

Can you help me, again, please?

Thank you,

Mary Gilbert

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Åsbjørg Susort

His confirmation Oct. 9. (18)70 in Hole, Christen Johannesen

Buskerud fylke, Hole, Tyristrand i Hole, Ministerialbok nr. I 6 (1852-1872), Konfirmerte 1870, Side 246
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20051116030944

 

Christen born Nov. 26. 1855, baptised Dec. 26.

Buskerud fylke, Hole, Tyristrand i Hole, Ministerialbok nr. I 6 (1852-1872), Fødte og døpte 1855, Side 19
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20051116030710

 

His father is Selveier (Owner) Johannes Henriksen Fægri

 

Edited by Åsbjørg Susort
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Mary Gilbert

Thank you!!  So, if I understand this correctly:

Kristen Johannesen was born, baptized and confirmed Christen Johannessen.  His father's name was Johannes Henriksen, and he owned land in/of the Fӕgri farm.  Kristen's/Christen's grandfather would have been Henrik.  Kristen's/Christen's mother was Lisa Christiansdatter.  Was it common to change the spelling like that (Christian to Kristen)?

Edited by Mary Gilbert
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Even Stormoen
1 time siden, Mary Gilbert skrev:

I finally found the marriage record for Kristen & Anne Thorine.  Theirs is the second marriage recorded in the attached link.  I think that it says that they were both born in Hole, he in 1855, she in 1868.  I think it says that the father of the groom was Johannes something (I cannot figure that out) and the father of the bride was Peder Olesen.  Beyond that information, I can't quite figure it out. 

 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/4187/23366/20

 

Can you help me, again, please?

Thank you,

Mary Gilbert

 

10 Feb | 1 | 1 | Kristen Johannessen & Anne Thorine Pedersdtr | Sliberiarb. Follum Sliberi | Hole Hole | 1855 1858 | Hole 9/10 70, der til Alters att 27/12 89 Sognepr Rynning Hole 6/10 82 der til Alters att 27/12 89 Sognepr Rynning | Selveier Johannes Henriksen Fægri Dagarb. Peder Olsen, Hole | Ole Pedersen Hofs Brug Thorv. Kristiansen Follum | 1-5-12/1 |-|-| Do |

 

Married Feb 10, he works at Follum Pulp Mill, both born at Hole , he in 1855 and she in 1858. Both confirmed and received their last communion there. Certificate(s) (dates) by the vicar Rynning. Grooms  father: Selveier [Farmer (in most cases, I belieive) owning his own land/estate .] Johannes Henriksen Fægri. Brides father: Day-worker/freelancer [bad, bad translation, had to use Google. Not reliable. But it is a worker employed on a daily or hourly basis for a shorter period of time.] Peder Olsen, Hole. Best men: Ole Pedersen from Hofs Pulp Mill, and Thorv[ald] Kristiansen Follum. Wedding announced on Jan. 1., 5., and 12. The «do» refers to the above «Ikke i Slægt» – not related.

 

All the best

Edited by Even Stormoen
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Are S. Gustavsen
På 23.10.2020 den 12.43, Even Stormoen skrev:

 

Thank you Else B!

 

That is definitely a much better translation. To bring out the meaning.

 

But why then didn't the priest use «Gift Kvinne»? Or similar. Could an unmarried adult woman be called «Kone»? I mean, why would he need to clarify that this «Kone» was married? 

 

I am clearly missing something here. Sorry.

 

All the best

 

Even et al,

 

Etymologically «Kone» is closely connected to the term «Kvinne». Please reference Hjalmar Falk and Alf Torp, Etymologisk Ordbog, 1903, s. 401, for comprehensive reading.  Here «Kvinne» is stated to be genetive pluralis of «Kone». The English term for female ruler, Queen, derives from the same word.

 

Hence, the active use of «Kone» in the above referenced context reflects the term for woman rather than our contemporary implied distinction that «Kone» has a default basic meaning of wife, and just wife, per se.

 

Also please make note that priest predominantly is the term for a (catholic) priest in American English, as a Lutheran colleague normally would be called a pastor.

 

On the same note, as we are entangling ourselves in the quagmire of older somewhat historic terms:. «Husmand» (Husmann), may be referenced as a cottar or perhaps better an indetured servant,

 

Best regards,

 

Are

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Even Stormoen
28 minutter siden, Are S. Gustavsen skrev:

 

Even et al,

 

Etymologically «Kone» is closely connected to the term «Kvinne». Please reference Hjalmar Falk and Alf Torp, Etymologisk Ordbog, 1903, s. 401, for comprehensive reading.  Here «Kvinne» is stated to be genetive pluralis of «Kone». The English term for female ruler, Queen, derives from the same word.

 

Hence, the active use of «Kone» in the above referenced context reflects the term for woman rather than our contemporary implied distinction that «Kone» has a default basic meaning of wife, and just wife, per se.

 

Also please make note that priest predominantly is the term for a (catholic) priest in American English, as a Lutheran colleague normally would be called a pastor.

 

On the same note, as we are entangling ourselves in the quagmire of older somewhat historic terms:. «Husmand» (Husmann), may be referenced as a cottar or perhaps better an indetured servant,

 

Best regards,

 

Are

 

Are!

 

Thank you so much for the clarifications/explanations. Hopefully this will make me wiser. 🙂

 

Edit to add: and help me navigate better
through the ‹unclean waters› of translation. 🙂

 

Regards

 

 

Edited by Even Stormoen
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Are S. Gustavsen
20 minutter siden, Are S. Gustavsen skrev:

indetured servant

 

A typo there. The term is indentured servant.

 

Are

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