Translation help Norwegian to English

[Even Stormoen]

3 timer siden, Mary Gilbert skrev:

So I see, in the birth records of the 3 children, that the parents are Kristen Johannessen and Anna Thorine Pedersdatter.  I have found Anna's birth record, but I cannot seem to locate a Kristen whose father was Johannes born in any of the Norderhov or Hole records.  I tried starting in 1853 and went through 1858.  (In some records his date of birth is 1855 and some have 1857.)   Is it possible that his name was spelled with a Ch instead of K at birth?  I cannot find any boy children named Kristen with a K.  In all of the census, birth and death records it is spelled with a K.

Thank you,

Mary

 

This has already been answered indirectly, but just for the record: Yes, Kristen could also be spelled beginning with «Ch» instead of a «K».

 

All the best

[Mary Gilbert]

Thank you, one and all! 

Languages are another hobby of mine (I have taken German, Russian and Latin over the years) but none of them are of any help with Norwegian.  It is fun (for me) to see the translations from you all and to start to get an understanding of the records I am finding without having to bother you so much.  

(FYI, I also love the etymological meanings, as they help with extrapolating other meanings/words.)

Thank you again,

Mary Gilbert

[Mary Gilbert]

I found the marriage record for Johannes Henrikssen & Lisa Christenssdatter (16 December 1849), second entry on the attached link.  If I am understanding it correctly, they are both 26 years old.  Johannes' father is Henrik Olessen Fӕgri (Fӕgri being the farm they live on). Lisa's father is Christen Brorgerssen (spelling?). Henrik's father is Ole Hanssen Fӕgri. Christen's father is Borger Henrikssen.

I cannot figure out what the rest of the information on their line means.

 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/1093/6958/50

 

Can you help?

Thank you,

Mary Gilbert

[Trude Nilsen]

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/327/pv00000008808651

Endret Oktober 27, 2020 av Trude Nilsen

[Trude Nilsen]

The same marriage in the klokkerbok. 

#5:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070313630540

 

and

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/327/pv00000009224722

Endret Oktober 27, 2020 av Trude Nilsen

[Trude Nilsen]

Sorry - google translate:

 

Column "#9"  shows when the pastor announced the marriage in the church.

 

Column "#12" shows when the groom and the bride were vaccinated against smallpox. 

[Mary Gilbert]

Thank you.  What is the first word in the heading of Column "9"?  And was the rest of what I think I read correct?

Thank you, again,

Mary Gilbert

Endret Oktober 27, 2020 av Mary Gilbert

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

20 minutter siden, Mary Gilbert skrev:

Thank you.  What is the first word in the heading of Column "9"?  And was the rest of what I think I read correct?

"Tillysnings-dagene"  (announcement days)

 

if the last question refers to this:

1 time siden, Mary Gilbert skrev:

I found the marriage record for Johannes Henrikssen & Lisa Christenssdatter (16 December 1849), second entry on the attached link.  If I am understanding it correctly, they are both 26 years old.  Johannes' father is Henrik Olessen Fӕgri (Fӕgri being the farm they live on). Lisa's father is Christen Brorgerssen (spelling?). Henrik's father is Ole Hanssen Fӕgri. Christen's father is Borger Henrikssen.

The date is 16 Febr 1849. 

Small spelling corrections: "Lise Christiansd ", "Hendrik Olssen", "Christian"

The fathers' names are spelled "Hendrik Olssen Fægri" and "Christian Borgersen".

Hen(d)rik's and Christian's fathers are not mentioned.

 

 

 

[Åsbjørg Susort]

3 timer siden, Mary Gilbert skrev:

Henrik's father is Ole Hanssen Fӕgri. Christen's father is Borger Henrikssen.

Borger Hunstad (not Henrikssen) and Ole Hanssen Fægri are "forlovere" best men...

[Mary Gilbert]

Thank you all for all of your help on my journey into the past.

[Elin Galtung Lihaug]

Here is an article on Norwegian parish registers:

http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~norway/na20.html

 

If you scroll down, you will see translations of the column headings: 

    Column headings, 1812 - 1819
    Column headings, 1820 - 1876
    Column headings, 1877 -

[Trude Nilsen]

7 timer siden, Elin Galtung Lihaug skrev:

If you scroll down, you will see translations of the column headings: 

    Column headings, 1812 - 1819
    Column headings, 1820 - 1876
    Column headings, 1877 -

 

Perfekt! Den har jeg leita etter.  (Perfect. I've been looking for that page)

Endret Oktober 28, 2020 av Trude Nilsen

[Mary Gilbert]

Thank you!  That article is so helpful.  Understanding the history allows me to understand the records, and the translations will make my searches so much easier.  

Mary

[Mary Gilbert]

Can someone explain the difference in the kirkebøker entries for the women in the dead & buried:

hüsmandskone

bygselkone

gaardsmandskone

and several other that I cannot make out the letters for

Also, what does this mean: fattiglern enke.  I thought that enke means widow, but what is the descriptor/adjective mean?  The literal translation appears to be poor widow?

I have included a link to the kirkebøker that I current looking through.

Thank you,

Mary Gilbert

 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/1172/7520/8

[Even Stormoen]

Hello Mary

 

Please excuse my late respons. Very busy at work, and I just ‹stumbled across› this last posting of yours.

 

But I will try to explain the various ‹titles›. With strong reservations. Due to my deficient english.

 

Here we go!

 

Husmandskone: Cotters/tenants Wife. «Tenant» is not fully adequate. I am cutting and pasting from Kristians excellent explanation in his post from Oct. 21st :

«Hd is an abbreviation for Husmand (modern spelling husmann) which means he did not own the land he was working. He had the right to work the land, and in return he had to work a certain amount of time each year for the main farm.»

 

Bygselskone: Well, a bit tricky. It means that she herself, or she and her husband ‹rented› [sorry, cannot find a better word. Google comes up with «to bar» or «to fence». Both dubious, i think] a plot/piece of land/farm. ‹One step up› from Husmann.

 

Gaardmandskone: That is simply – Farmers Wife.

 

Fattiglem [with an -m, not «-ern»] Enke: Correct – Poor Widow. «Poor» in the sense that she was ‹without means›, not that she was to be felt sorry for. Well, one could probably easily do that too 😉

 

Other ‹titles› for the  dead females on the page you linked to, in order:

 

Nr. 6: not shure, but she was a kid, – just about one year old.

 

Nr. 7: «Sindsyg Pige, Fattiglem» ≈ Insane Unmarried Woman, Poor.

 

Nr. 8: «Livørekone». There are several norwegian words for this: «Kaarkone» (modern spelling – Kårkone), «Folgekone», all meaning the same: When a farm got a new owner, whether it was an heir or an external buyer who took over, an agreement was often made concerning ‹Føderåd/Kår/Livøre/Folge›. It usually included the right to housing and/or other benefits (e.g. grain, milk, potatoes, firewood), which the new owner of the farm was obliged to provide for the previous one. Sometimes the right to use a certain plot of land, help with plowing, etc. were also conditioned. As well as covering the costs of a «decent funeral».

I.o.w. – kind of a retirement arrangement for ‹the old folks›.

 

Back to basics: So a «Livørekone» is a woman who has such an agreement.

 

The Norwegian language is amazing, because (among other things 😉 ) you ‹are allowed› to make ‹compilations› – making new words out of two (or more) already excisting ones.

And the above is an example of just that. A kind of legally expression – «Kår» etc. is combined with «kone» – woman, so by just one word, her position/condition is understood. You will come across this ‹phenomenon› constantly, when you are dealing with norwegian.

 

Finally,  just for the record: There are also «Kår » (etc.) -men [males] 😉 

 

‘nuff said. 😉

 

Nr. 9: Likewise – «Livørekone»

Nr. 10: «Livøreenke» – a widow under the same conditions as explained above.

Nr. 11: «Fattiglem, Pige » –Poor, Unmarried Woman.

Nr. 12: «Hmd [abbreviaton] kone med Fattighjelp» – well, ‹Cotters› wife with support (economic) from the ‹social service›, [non-existent at that time, in the modern sense – anyhow . . . ]

Nr.13: «Livøre Kvinde, ugift» – «Livøre»-Woman, Unmarried.

Nr. 14: «Hmd-Enke» – ‹Cotters› Widow.

Nr. 15: «uægte barn» – child born out of wedlock.

Nr. 16: «Hmdkone» – ‹Cotters› wife.

Nr.´17: [First entry 1896] – «Fattiglem Enke» – Poor Widow.

 

Regards

 

 

 

Endret November 4, 2020 av Even Stormoen

[Mary Gilbert]

Thank you so very much.  You have been so very helpful.  I was not aware that Norwegian was such a fluid language. In my experience with languages (I studied Latin, Russian and German in High School and College and English is my first language) the rules are fairly rigid, so your help in understanding Norway's history and language is extraordinary.  (My major in college was History, with the emphasis on Europe, but they did not spend a lot of time on any of the Scandinavian countries.) 

Regards,

Mary 

[Mary Gilbert]

Can you help me with, Caroline, entry 15 in the attached link?  I think the father's name is Anders Olssen and the mother's name is Eignola Christiansdatter, but I just can't be sure.  Is the place that is named after the mother's name Skjærdalen?  The rest is beyond me.  I cannot figure if the date of birth is January 6, 1853?? 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/1094/6963/5

 

I am looking for a Karoline Andersdatter, mother of Anne Thorine, who was born in 1868.  https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070313630626  Would having a child at 15 in this era be out of the question?  I can't find the marriage record for Karoline Andersdatter & Peder Olssen either.  I am fairly certain that the baptismal record for Peder is https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/1093/6951/32 in 1841.

 

Thank you

Mary Gilbert

Endret November 18, 2020 av Mary Gilbert

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

3 timer siden, Mary Gilbert skrev:

Can you help me with, Caroline, entry 15 in the attached link?  I think the father's name is Anders Olssen and the mother's name is Eignola Christiansdatter, but I just can't be sure.  Is the place that is named after the mother's name Skjærdalen?  The rest is beyond me.  I cannot figure if the date of birth is January 6, 1853?? 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/1094/6963/5

born 1853 Januar 6, bapt. 1853 March 28

I read the parents as

"Ind. [Inderst] Anders Olsen og  Ragnele Christiansd Skamark"

 

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

4 timer siden, Mary Gilbert skrev:

I am looking for a Karoline Andersdatter, mother of Anne Thorine, who was born in 1868.  https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070313630626  Would having a child at 15 in this era be out of the question?  I can't find the marriage record for Karoline Andersdatter & Peder Olssen either.  I am fairly certain that the baptismal record for Peder is https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/1093/6951/32 in 1841.

 

Thank you

Mary Gilbert

The link is the the "klokkarbok" (sexton's copy). The vicars protocol is here

SAKO, Hole kirkebøker, F/Fa/L0006: Ministerialbok nr. I 6, 1852-1872, s. 151
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20051116030843

This contains some more information, among other, that (see No. 12) the child is legitimate ("ekte"); which means that the parents of Anne Thorine were married.

The serial No. differs because the first protocol is for Tyristrand sokn (subparish) only, while the vicar's book is for the entire parish (Hole and Tyristrand).

 

There is a possibility that the mother was married at age 15, but it is quite small.

More important is that the mother here is Anne Karoline Andersd., while the one you linked above is Caroline.

[Mary Gilbert]

Thank you, very much.  I will start over looking through the vicars book for an Anne Karoline Andersdatter, and the parents marriage also.

[Mary Gilbert]

Even,

I don't know if you remember helping me with this census record, but I was able to find baptismal records for the 2 children, Sofie and Emil.  They both have their mother listed as Karen Marie Sorensen, each with a different father and each listed as born out of wedlock.  I cannot find any record of a marriage between Kristen and Karen Marie or Marie Sorensen.  Sofie's father is listed as a Karl Johannessen (I am still looking to find out if their is a connection between Kristen and Karl Johannessen, as they are both from Skjærdalen.  Kristen was born in 1855 and Karl was born in 1874.) Lena's parents Anne Thorine & Kristen) were married before the birth of their son, Johannes, and Anne Thorine died shortly after the birth of their daughter, Anne.

I just thought that you would find it interesting, that your help led me to finding out about the other 2 children.

Thank you,

Mary 

 

"Thank you so much.  I think that I found Lina with Kristen in the 1900 Norwegian Census for Norderhov, but it shows Kristen's DOB as 1857. Could it still be the same people?

 

The dates (especially births) were often approximate in the censuses. So deviating by just one year – I would say they are the same people. But important: check the baptisms of the other children. Do they have the same parents? (especially the mother, who appears to be dead at the time of the census), and do they perhaps share some of Lenas sponsors?

 

By the way, I must say that the entry is a bit confusing. Kristen Johannesen works at a ‹tree grinding factory› Sorry, can not provide a better translation. He's got a housekeeper Marie Sørensen, and five children. Three of them, Lena, Johannes and Anne,  have ‹correct› patronymics (Kristensen). But the last two are Sofie Karlsen and Emil Eriksen. As far as I can see they are all from Hole, Ringerike. Weird. Foster children?"

 

 

Endret Desember 3, 2020 av Mary Gilbert

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

42 minutter siden, Mary Gilbert skrev:

By the way, I must say that the entry is a bit confusing. Kristen Johannesen works at a ‹tree grinding factory› Sorry, can not provide a better translation. He's got a housekeeper Marie Sørensen, and five children. Three of them, Lena, Johannes and Anne,  have ‹correct› patronymics (Kristensen). But the last two are Sofie Karlsen and Emil Eriksen. As far as I can see they are all from Hole, Ringerike. Weird. Foster children?"

 

"træsliberi" = pulp mill; and yes... they literally grind wood.

 

To help for the "confusion", it can be useful to note what is asked for in the census:

Column 7 is "stilling i familien"; that is position in the houshold - not necessarily a genetic (or even social) relation to the main person.

My guess is that Lena, Johanna and Anne are children of the widower, Kristen,

and that Sofie and Emil are children of the housekeeper, "Marie Sørensen" = "Karen Marie Sørensen".

 

 

[Tove D. Johansen]

Have found Emil in the parish records for Norderhov. He was baptized May 15, 1898. 

Parents Karen Marie Sørensen and Erik Edvardsen Gamserud were not married.

SAKO, Norderhov kirkebøker, F/Fa/L0016: Ministerialbok nr. 16, 1885-1902, s. 92
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060607130535
 

Endret Desember 3, 2020 av Tove D. Johansen

[Mary Gilbert]

Thank you. I have also found Sofie Karlsen's baptismal record, in Hole, born March 24, 1895. Sofie's father is listed as a Karl Johannessen who was not married to her mother Karen Marie Sorensdatter (Sorensen).  I thought that perhaps, since you have all been so helpful in helping me understand how Norwegian records are kept and what the entries mean, that I would let you know just how well you have taught me. Even had pointed out to me that Sofie and Emil did not have the patronymic of Kristensen but are listed as daughter and son, and from that and other hints and tips you all have given me, the puzzle pieces seem to be coming together.

Thank you again. Norway's historical records are so logical, reasonable and well-kept that they are like reading a mystery novel...if you look for the clues, all of the information seems to there.

Mary Gilbert

[Tove D. Johansen]

The widower Kristen and his housekeeper Karen Marie were married May 4, 1901

 

SAKO, Norderhov kirkebøker, F/Fa/L0016: Ministerialbok nr. 16, 1885-1902, s. 401
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060607130718

 

You can find the family on the 1910 census for Norderhov. They get the children Selma, Ole, Margit and Karl