1665 Census - Tore Sjursson Loftsgården, born circa 1604, died circa 1694, and Oluf Bjørnsen Asgården, born after 1593 (died 1684-1693)

[Al Möen]

Could someone please try to find the entries in the 1665 Census for Tore Sjursson Loftsgården, born circa 1604 and Oluf Bjørnsen Asgården, born after 1593 and all other people living in their households in Buskerud, possibly Numedal, possibly Nore Parish.

I'm also looking for Tore's daughters, Gro, Ingebjør and another whose name is unknown.

Tore's sons Syver and Bjørn were probably also living at Loftsgården or Asgården.

 

Thank you all for your help.

[tom askerøi]

I think this the entry for Loftsgarden 1664 - 7th farm on the left side. But this is not a cencus, it's only listing males above a certain age (possible soldiers). Here seems Tore to be listed (age: 60 years) and in the second column is listed a son, Bjørn (aged 12). That's all:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/ft10051005122080

 

Unfortunately I'm not familiar with this area, and I can't find any farm called anything like "Asgarden".

 

But anyway, you're asking questions no-one can answere from a "manntall" - maybe called "Electoral roll" (?) in english?

(NO women are listed (unless they're a widow running the farm (and even then her name is usually not mentioned - she's usually only "the widow")).

 

I'm sorry - but information of daughter's and wifes - and young sons - you'll have to look up in probates - if you can find any...

 

Hopefully someone else knows more about this area and can provide you with more help...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Endret August 15, 2023 av tom askerøi

[Al Möen]

21 hours ago, tom askerøi said:

I think this the entry for Loftsgarden 1664 - 7th farm on the left side. But this is not a cencus, it's only listing males above a certain age (possible soldiers). Here seems Tore to be listed (age: 60 years) and in the second column is listed a son, Bjørn (aged 12). That's all:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/ft10051005122080

 

Unfortunately I'm not familiar with this area, and I can't find any farm called anything like "Asgarden".

 

 

Thank you, Tom.  That is really helpful.  Could you please translate the headings at the top of the five columns and describe the purpose of each column?

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

2 pages back (p. 146), 4th entry: "Vestr Aasgaard j hud | Ole Biønss. 50 Aar"

 

[tom askerøi]

I can try - hopefully others can correct me if I'm wrong.

 

The form is for listing possible military personal (they could be "drafted") above the age of 12 or 13 years. 

 

The first colomn is for the farm name (and the "size" of it - a tax value),

the second is for the farmer(s),

the third is for sons on the farm (normally the farmer's sons, but could also include STEP-sons! ),

the fourth is for listing servants living in the farm house and

the fifth is for listing the "head" of other families/persons (normally employees) living on the farm in other houses/huts at the farm to be at hand for the farmer.

This may not be a very presise description, so hopefully someone else could help you with a better one. 

 

Please note that these descriptions may be different locally.

 

 

 

 

 

Endret August 15, 2023 av tom askerøi

[Al Möen]

Could someone please translate all of the words on this page, please?  I'm trying to find out all of the relationships in Nore Parish in 1963-1666, so that I may fully understand the family of my earliest Patrilineal ancestors.

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

52 minutter siden, Al Möen skrev:

Could someone please translate all of the words on this page, please?  I'm trying to find out all of the relationships in Nore Parish in 1963-1666, so that I may fully understand the family of my earliest Patrilineal ancestors.

 

"Norre Annex" [Nore parish]

"Fulde Gaarder" ["full" farms; "full" refer to a tax class; full, half or quarter tax]

columns:

"Gaardene schylder" ("skyld", i.e. value of the estate (basis for taxation, rent etc.)

"Opsiddere" (holders)

"Sønner" (sons)

"Tienistedrenge och Knechte" (farm hands and soldiers)

"Huusmend" (main persons in subordinate holdings - hard to translate)

[Al Möen]

Are the first two farm lines linked?  It looks like Oluf, age 52, and his son, Halvor, age 6, on the first line and someone 26 years of age on the second line.  Are they joint owners of the same farm or adjoining farms?  What is the name of the farm(s)?

 

Could someone please type all of the original Norwegian words for the 3 farms above and then translate them into English, as Ivar has done, above, for the headings?

 

Thank you, all, for your help.  By transcribing the original Norwegian handwriting into Norwegian type and then translating that into English, for me, I will eventually be able to decipher many of the words, myself - especially names with ages.

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

10 minutter siden, Al Möen skrev:

Are the first two farm lines linked?  It looks like Oluf, age 52, and his son, Halvor, age 6, on the first line and someone 26 years of age on the second line.  Are they joint owners of the same farm or adjoining farms?  What is the name of the farm(s)?

I am not sure if I understand the question.

Each entry is read from left, with names/data corresponding to the heading of each column (see above).

 

 (farm and "skyld") | (holder) | (sons) | (farm hands) | ("husmenn")

 

"Eye - 3 huder | Olluff 52 | Halduor 16 | Knud Rolffs 16 aar | Ingen [=none]"

 

"Spaaren med [with] Land Ødegaard 3 1/2 hud | Lauridtz 26 | Ingen  | Offue Peders 20, er Knegt | Ingen"

 

"Sualstue 4 1/2 hud | Gunder 68 | Ingen | Niels Gulbrands 12 | Ingen"

 

"hud" (pl. huder) is a (cow) hide, and used as the value species of farms in this area.

A "skyld" of 3 hides ("3 huder") means that, if the farm is rented, the rent is 3 hides per year.

A diversity of taxes and duties were scaled to this value (some times linear, some times in steps).

 

BTW, it would be helpful if you provide the "quick link" to the protocol, similar to that given by Tom above

 

 

 

 

[Al Möen]

1 hour ago, Ivar S. Ertesvåg said:

BTW, it would be helpful if you provide the "quick link" to the protocol, similar to that given by Tom above

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/source/35564

[Al Möen]

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/ft/contents/35564

[Al Möen]

https://www.arkivportalen.no/entity/no-a1450-01000001382421

[Al Möen]

Here are the original pages:

 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/35564/69

[Al Möen]

I am endeavouring to build a picture of all of the relatives and associates of my direct Patrilineal ancestor, Bjørn Sjursson, born circa 1616-1621, son of Sjur Loftsgården, who were mentioned in the census of 1663-1666.  I presume that they were all living in Nore Parish at that time, but I don't know for sure if any relatives were living in Uvdal or other neighbouring Parishes.

I would particularly like to discover if the Father of Sjur Loftsgården was a man named Torjus and if Sjur's Father's Father was named Bjørn.

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

1 time siden, Al Möen skrev:

Here are the original pages:

 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/35564/69

This is the link you should provide, known as "quick link" in the English version of DA.

Here we can turn pages, zoom and access various information about the source.

 

 

Endret August 18, 2023 av Ivar S. Ertesvåg

[Al Möen]

Can anyone explain the reasoning behind the different registers?

 

This one is dated 2 November 1664:

 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/35564/69

 

And this one is dated 22 November 1664:

 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/35507/80

 

Tore Syversen Loftsgården (age 60) and his son, Bjørn (age 12) are listed in both Census registers.  Is the one dated 22 November 1664 a transcript of the one dated 2 November 1664?  I can't decipher most of the writing, but based on the ages of the people, there appear to be differences between the two registers.  Are there any other Census registers for the Parishes of Nore and Uvdal, either original or transcribed from original, for the period 1663 to 1666?

 

I want to use the 1663-1666 Census as a 'snapshot' to identify every potential relative, living at that time, of my Patrilineal ancestor, Bjørn Sjursson (born circa 1616-1621), son of Sjur Loftsgården (born circa 1575).  After identifying all of the potential Patrilineal ancestors, and their direct patrilineal relatives, I want to trace down to living Patrilineal descendants in order to seek to obtain Y chromosome analysis to confirm any other members of the same Y chromosome Haplogroup as mine.  My own Haplogroup is R-YP1390 obtained by having 'Big Y-700' analysis done by familytreedna.com.  The origin of this Haplogroup is estimated to have occurred about 850 years ago - before historic records.  If successful it is likely that new, more recent, Haplogroups will be allocated, bringing the mutations within the scope of historic records.  The interval between mutations in Y chromosome transfer from Father to son is 144 years on average, so there are probably about 6 new Haplogroups to be discovered in my Patrilineal ancestry.

 

Any help with deciphering and translating these Census registers would be greatly appreciated.

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

8 timer siden, Al Möen skrev:

Can anyone explain the reasoning behind the different registers?

 

This one is dated 2 November 1664:

 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/35564/69

 

And this one is dated 22 November 1664:

 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/35507/80

 

Tore Syversen Loftsgården (age 60) and his son, Bjørn (age 12) are listed in both Census registers.  Is the one dated 22 November 1664 a transcript of the one dated 2 November 1664?

 

If you look at the title line obove the scanned images, you will see that the first is "Bailiff's Census ..." and the

second "Vicars's Census ...."  They were supposed to be independent.

 

The background is simply that the commissioner, TItus Bulche, expected to get more accurate accounts when asking both the

secular and clerical officers to make a census each.

 

The headings are already translated for you. A full transcript of a register is weeks of work. 

 

These censuses are weak sources for family relations.  Even though "sons" are listed, they might be stepsons or younger brothers.

Moreover,  some names were used very frequently, and the same name in another source might be another person.

 

 

[Al Möen]

On 8/19/2023 at 7:58 PM, Ivar S. Ertesvåg said:

the first is "Bailiff's Census ..." and the

second "Vicars's Census ...."  They were supposed to be independent.

 

The background is simply that the commissioner, TItus Bulche, expected to get more accurate accounts when asking both the

secular and clerical officers to make a census each.

 

Thank you.  That is useful information.

[Al Möen]

On 8/19/2023 at 7:58 PM, Ivar S. Ertesvåg said:

These censuses are weak sources for family relations.  Even though "sons" are listed, they might be stepsons or younger brothers.

Moreover,  some names were used very frequently, and the same name in another source might be another person.

 

The value of DNA Genealogy is that it can be used to establish or verify ancestry.

[Al Möen]

On 8/19/2023 at 7:58 PM, Ivar S. Ertesvåg said:

A full transcript of a register is weeks of work. 

 

Is there a link to an internet page, which shows the way that letters and words and abbreviations were written in Norway in 1663-1666?

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

4 timer siden, Al Möen skrev:

 

The value of DNA Genealogy is that it can be used to establish or verify ancestry.

You still need something reliable to verify - and over 10-12 generations it is practically limited to the patrilinear (males only) line.

 

4 timer siden, Al Möen skrev:

 

Is there a link to an internet page, which shows the way that letters and words and abbreviations were written in Norway in 1663-1666?

 

Handwriting was (and is) individual ...

There are some descriptions, e.g. here:

https://www.bergen.kommune.no/hvaskjer/tema/bergen-byarkiv-forteller/byhistorie/byarkivets-publikasjoner/gotisk-skrift

(close to the bottom are links to two pdf documents. The first one "Gotisk skrift ...." shows examples.)