Noen som er god på DNA?

[Renate Hagen]

Vi har en gruppe med DNA matcher som vi ikke klarer å plassere. De 3 største ligger på ca 1% (69,9cM, 75,1cM og 85,6cM). De triangulerer ikke med noen godt kjente matcher på morssiden, ei heller på farmor sin side. Da gjenstår farfar Anton. Foreslått felles forfedre er tippoldeforeldre for oss, tipptipp for matchene. 

 

Anton var fra Ørlandet. Disse matchene går tilbake til et ektepar, Ruben Brandal og Lily Marie Eide. Ruben var fra Møre og Romsdal, og det samme var hans forfedre. Lilly Marie er født 1919 i Bjugn. Har gått tilbake 3 ledd for begge som blir de ukjentes tipptipp (med unntak av Lilly sin morfar som er litt diffus). Ingen kjent kobling til oss, men det peker jo mot Lilly siden hennes slekt er i området. (Jeg har ikke lagt ved noen slektslinje her, siden dette er hovedsakelig et spørsmål om DNA, men kan linke til alle hvis det er ønskelig). 

 

Anton sin familie med kjente DNA koblinger er foreldrene, Nils og Olava, farmor Elen og mormor Maren. 

 

1. Kjent DNA på kromosom 3 går til Nils og hans mor Elen, men også til mor Olava. 

2. Kromosom 4 går til Olava. (De 3 ukjente og 3 kjente triangulerte alle her. En av de kjente triangulerte også med en annen kjent match som går tilbake til Olava sin mor Maren)

3. Kromosom 6. Her er det bare en kjent match som dekker segmentet og han går til Anton. Han triangulerer med de 3 ukjente. 

4. Kromosom 20. En av de ukjente triangulerer her med en ny trio av kjente som går tilbake til Anton og mor Olava. 

 

Nå vil jeg gjerne høre om noen har noen tips, råd eller teorier. 

 

DNA matchene er for små til å indikere at Anton har vært på tur. At både Elen/Nils og Maren/Olava dukker opp og triangulerer kan vel kanskje indikere at det her er snakk om noe felles slekt bakover på Antons farsside og morssiden. Kanskje dette er et segments om går igjen på Ørlandet/Bjugn? Og at dette gir større uttelling på matchene?

[Grethe Flood]

Jeg har ikke svar på spørsmålet om DNA, men er dette Ruben og Lilly Marie?

Gårdshistorie Eide gnr. 33

https://www.nb.no/items/b3b4c593fc9a4784fb48d5321d858dec?page=101&searchText="ruben brandal"

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/387/pc00000002446457

 

FT1920: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01074081002524

 

 

[Remi]

85cM gir felles ane trolig 11 generasjoner tilbake, 69 gir samme resultat. Alt under 100cM er egentlig ubrukelig innen slektsforkningen siden det felles opphavet er for mange generasjoner tilbake og kan egentlig ikke skilles fra det som er tilfeldig DNA.

 

Men du kan sjekke ut denne siden og se om den hjelper deg: https://www.bergenetics.no/DNA/systematisk-arbeid/

 

Remi

[Renate Hagen]

Hei, Remi. 

 

Ifølge DNApainter så er det lengste tilbake man må gå 11 generasjoner, med 94% sjanse for at felles er innenfor 5 generasjoner, men det er ved en forbindelse. Jeg mistenker her at det er noe mer. Enten at vi er slekt i flere ledd, eller at to av mine forfedre er i slekt.  

[Richard Olsen]

Generally speaking, 85cM will take you to approximately a third cousin. Of course, it varies depending on whether it is at the high end or low end. Too many variants, unless the relationship is known.

[Renate Hagen]

Hei, Grethe

 

Ja, det er riktig Ruben og Lilly. Ruben sine aner går til Møre og Romsdal. Lilly sine foreldre, Kornelius og Lorentse, har du funnet. (Det blir veldig mange lenker hvis jeg skal ta med alle, men her er et utvalg.)

 

Kornelius er her med sine foreldre (Hans far Ove Nilsen og hans mor het Lusina Margrethe, her står det kun Margrethe)

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/255/pd00000027073268

Ove Nilsen med sin mor Ane Ingebrightsdatter. Lusina er helt nederst på samme telling. 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01052364003392

Dette er nok Ane sin dåp. 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/255/pd00000001752991

Ove og Lusina sin vielse er her. Hans far har blitt transkribert til Olausen, men jeg begynner å mistenke at det er Hansen utifra andre kilder. Nr.2 høyre side.

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070328660063

Lusina sin dåp er her. Foreldre Ingebright Pedersen og Elen Larsdatter

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/255/pd00000004631011

 

Lorentse sin mor var Jensine Iversdatter. Hennes far står som Robert Kristiansen. Hennes dåp.

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/255/pd00000021565422

Jensine var datter av Iver Thoresen Skaanes og Ingeborg Jonsdatter

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/255/pd00000004627208

Ingeborg sine foreldre har Even oppgitt her i sin oversettelse av leirmålssaken mot Ingeborg. De var John og Johanne Rabben fra Ørland.

https://forum.arkivverket.no/topic/301726-kan-noen-hjelpe-meg-med-å-tyde-forhør-av-ingeborg-johnsdatter-wiklem/#comment-2429428

Robert Kristiansen er litt mer diffus. Det står Robert Kristiansen i vielsen mellom Lorentse og Kornelius også. Han skal være født i 1862 ifølge vielsen. Det er ingen andre søkeresultat på en Robert Kristiansen i området. Det er en Rober Kristian Kristoffersen Rønne født 1862/63, men det er det. 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01053175000482

 

Hi, Richard. 

I unfortunately don’t have all the ancestors back to a third cousin level. I am missing one set of parents for Andreas Olsen. No Ole/Olsen on the unknown matches side. My biggest worry is pedigree collapse. Pedigree collapse is why I don’t do a lot of DNA research in Ål. The further back I got in that parish, the more repeats I had. At one point I got to a generation where half the ancestors repeated. 

 

Andreas Olsen Røstad

https://www.histreg.no/index.php/person/daid/pv00000000359395

Endret Juni 1 av Renate Hagen

[Richard Olsen]

I apologize if this confuses you, but I am confused.

 

On 5/30/2024 at 7:46 AM, Renate Hagen said:

Vi har en gruppe med DNA matcher som vi ikke klarer å plassere. De 3 største ligger på ca 1% (69,9cM, 75,1cM og 85,6cM). De triangulerer ikke med noen godt kjente matcher på morssiden, ei heller på farmor sin side. Da gjenstår farfar Anton. Foreslått felles forfedre er tippoldeforeldre for oss, tipptipp for matchene. 

 

I presumed you are the person who has submitted the DNA. These 3 results - 69.9cM, 75.1cM, 85.6cM- places the relationship as 3rd cousin, 3rd cousin once-removed, half-3rd cousin, 4th cousin - 2nd cousin once-removed, or half 2nd cousin (possibly some other relationship)

 

The suggested common ancestors being great-great-grandparents. These suggested ancestors are a perfect fit for 3rd cousins (you and the other(s) match. Keep in mind they are only suggestions.

 

So, you need only to go back as far as your great-great-grandparents (or another generation back) to see if they are the common ancestors.

 

What is confusing me is why you are going back to the 1700s (Andreas Olsen)? Perhaps I am wrong, but I assume your great-great-grandparents were born early 1800s.

 

 

On 5/30/2024 at 7:46 AM, Renate Hagen said:

Foreslått felles forfedre er tippoldeforeldre for oss, tipptipp for matchene. 

 

That makes sense given the cM amounts. Beyond that would see a much lower cM amount. Generally speaking, one of your 2nd great-grandparents should be the common link to the other matches.

Endret Juni 1 av Richard Olsen

[Renate Hagen]

I understand the confusion. The matches are for my grandmother. She was born in 1931. Her father born in 1890, and her grandfather Anton was born in 1823. He was 36 years older than his second wife. 
 

Anton is the branch that it’s been narrowed down to. I have gotten some help in finding one connection, but that is so far back that it shouldn’t even be counted. One, not a set of two parents, is a common ancestor 8 generations back, with one pedigree collapse. 

[Richard Olsen]

Sorry for all of these extra postings. I needed to get it figured out.

 

It has been narrowed down to Anton, your grandmother's grandfather (your 2nd great grandfather)

 

What the cM amounts suggest is that your grandmother is 3rd cousins (approx.) to the other matches. The common ancestor(s) being Anton's grandparent(s).

 

Generally speaking, one or two of Anton's grandparents should be the common link.

 

I assume Andreas Olsen is a grandparent to Anton.

 

Here is one possible candidate:

 

Andreas Olsen, born September 30, 1764. Parents: Ole Larsen Lund (Ola Larsson) and Guri Andersdatter Hogset. Does it appear as a possibility to you?

Endret Juni 1 av Richard Olsen

[Richard Olsen]

I would not rule out your grandmother's parents.

 

My personal suggestion, for whatever it is worth, places the relationship at one of the following:

 

1. 2nd cousin once-removed

2. half- 2nd cousin

3. 3rd cousin

 

Of course, as you have stated, there could be double-cousins which would slightly increase the cM amounts. That could possibly lead to a false reading.

[Renate Hagen]

Ask all the questions you want. I’m just grateful for the help.

 

I think you may be on to something with Ole Larsen Lund and Guri. If those are the parents of Andreas, then that would mean that Antons parents were first cousins. 

 

A quick family tree for Anton:

Parents: Nils Andreas Andreassen Døsvig and Olava Larsdatter 

https://www.histreg.no/index.php/person/daid/pv00000000053058

Parents of Nils: Andreas Olsen Røstad and Ellen Nilsdatter Selnes

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Olsen-12650

Parents of Olava: Lars Olsen Røstad and Maren Olsdatter Haav

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Olsen-12667

 

Ole Larsen Røstads parents are said to have been Ole Larsen and Guri too. 

https://www.nb.no/items/08fb1146d643e58834d83ab38f9d4832?page=309&searchText=«Lars olsen»

 

Here is my thoughts process when removing the branches that I did. My grandmother is Ingrid. The DNA on her maternal side does not triangulate with the unknow group of matches. Those maternal segments are all mapped to Ingrid’s Swedish grandfather. That moves our focus to her father, Oscar. 

 

On his maternal side, Maren, we have 16 descent size matches, mapping about half of the DNA Ingrid has inherited from Maren. None of those coincide with the unknown matches. I have also colour coded that side purple, including any unknown matches they triangulate with. There is no purple shared matches with the unknowns that I am looking for. 

 

The segments Ingrid shares with the unknow is mapped. When I say that a segment is mapped to XX, I mean that the shared set of ancestor are XXs parents. I don’t know if the DNA came from XXs mother of father. Just that XX carries it. 

3. This segment seem to go back to both of Antons parents

4. Goes to Olava Larsdatter 

6. Goes to Anton 

20. Goes to Anton and Olava

 

[Richard Olsen]

I don't know if this is correct, but it makes sense to me when studying the cM amounts.

 

https://www.geni.com/people/Andreas-Lund/6000000027546665285

 

Check his brother Lars Olsen Hoff. It shows that Lars' daughter Olava married Nils Andreassen.

Endret Juni 1 av Richard Olsen

[Renate Hagen]

So very roughly speaking, even though DNA isn’t passed down in exact numbers, Ingrid should be have inherited 6,25% from Ole Larsen and Guri. With the repeat it’s around double?

 

Ørlandsboka only has two children for Ole Larsen and Guri, but I see Ann-Carin Bøyesen has 8. I think this answers a lot on my side. 

https://www.nb.no/items/d1b64e04d72bbb030f6d0da919d65c79?page=35&searchText=«ole Larsen lunda»

[Richard Olsen]

Below are average amounts

 

Ole Larsen and Guri

Andreas Olsen - 50% from each parent

Nils Andreasen - 25% from each grandparent

Anton - 12.5% from each great-grandparent

Oscar - 6.25% from each Great-great Grandparent

Ingrid - 3.125% from each great-great-great-grandparent (approx. double amount if she has double 3rd great-grandparents).

 

If double it could give Ingrid the equivalency of Oscar's generation, which would increase the cM amount, and lead to a possible false reading. Ingrid could be seen (cM speaking) as a 2nd great-grandchild to Ole Larsen and Guri. Ingrid could appear to be approx. 3rd cousins to the Match(es).

[Richard Olsen]

This does not prove anything. In the 1801 census, Andreas Olsen and family were residing on the same farm (Ervig) as Ole Larsen and Guri.

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01058437002939

[Richard Olsen]

Well, I have exhausted all resources available to me. I don't know if we have accomplished much. I am not a DNA expert. I believe that the above discussed is a probability that may never be proven or denied.

 

The only suggestion is to attempt to contact the people with family trees showing Andreas Olsen's parents as Ole Larsen and Guri Andersdr, and ask why they believe the information is true.

Endret Juni 2 av Richard Olsen

[Renate Hagen]

Thank you for all your help. This was never really about proving anything, but to get a fresh pair of eyes on it, maybe get some advice and learn something. And that I did. We may also one day get an answer to the Lunda question. Anton has direct male descendants so Y-dna is an option. There’s still a lot of my grandmother’s DNA left to map too. About half is mapped to a known ancestor and there are new matches every year. Some of the DNA is very clear, like this part that show DNA that have been passed down from Maren to Olava to Anton. (The purple is in a pile up area).

 

[Richard Olsen]

On 6/2/2024 at 12:38 AM, Renate Hagen said:

o very roughly speaking, even though DNA isn’t passed down in exact numbers, Ingrid should be have inherited 6,25% from Ole Larsen and Guri. With the repeat it’s around double?

 

On 6/2/2024 at 5:43 AM, Richard Olsen said:

If double it could give Ingrid the equivalency of Oscar's generation, which would increase the cM amount, and lead to a possible false reading. Ingrid could be seen (cM speaking) as a 2nd great-grandchild to Ole Larsen and Guri. Ingrid could appear to be approx. 3rd cousins to the Match(es).

 

We both use the word double, and that did not sit well with me. I did further research. When related ancestors marry and have children their descendants' cM amount will not necessarily double, but could. It is very complex and complicated. There is so much involved, such as degree-of-separation and pedigree-collapse. The range of cMs really throws things off.

[Renate Hagen]

Yes. You are right. There’s too many generations between them. Would be interesting to see if we get more matches for this line in the future.