Help with my grandfather's lineage

[Peggy Stanley]

Hello,

 

I am hoping to find some help in tracing my grandfather's ancestry. Below is a link to his birth record and what I have been able to find out so far. The record is very difficult to read, but I am hoping that someone might be able to decipher some of the names and information in columns 9 and 11:

 

http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=2345&idx_id=2345&uid=ny&idx_side=-97

 

Name: Kristian Edvard Jenssen

Born: 12 Dec 1885, in Trondheim

Father: Jens Jenssen, b. 1851

Father's Occupation: Traveling Salesman

Mother: Inga Ronning, b. 23 March 1866

Mother's Occupation (from 1900 Census) Servant on Steamboat

 

His parents were not married and evidently never got married. I found Inga Ronning in the 1900 census, still living in Trondheim, but not with a husband or children. She may be living with her mother, Ingeborg Ronning, born in 1827. (I thing I see Ingeborg Ronning listed in column 11?) In the 1910 census she is listed as living in Bergen, still unmarried and without additional children. In 1911 she has died in Bergen.

 

 

I also found my grandfather in the Trondheim 1900 census, but he is not living with his mother, but appears to be living at a bath house or bath club? I thought it was odd for him to be living alone at 15 years old, but maybe not? In 1904 or 1905 my grandfather has come to America. He was a sailor and his naturalization papers say he came here from Shanghai, China.

 

I found seven Jens Jenssen, born in 1851, in the 1900 census, but have no way of knowing if any of them are him. I have heard that my grandfather's father and brother drowned, but I do not know when or even if that for sure happened.

 

I am wondering if he had any siblings or aunts and uncles? I wonder if his dad stayed in Trondheim? Might I have cousins that I could connect with? I've attached a photo of my grandfather which I believe was taken in Norway.

 

My maternal grandmother was from Vestnes, Norway and I was able to visit there this past September and have now connected with cousins there. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[Leif Biberg Kristensen]

Jeg har loset Peggy inn på dette forumet etter at hun først postet en tråd på «Spørsmål om skannet materiale». Hvis det er noen som ikke føler seg komfortable med å svare på engelsk vil jeg mer enn gjerne hjelpe til som tolk, så bare skriv i vei på norsk :)

 

To Peggy: I've just explained about your first thread regarding this topic, and stated my willingness to serve as an interpreter in the (likely) case that somebody would prefer to reply in Norwegian.

[Peggy Stanley]

Jeg har loset Peggy inn på dette forumet etter at hun først postet en tråd på «Spørsmål om skannet materiale». Hvis det er noen som ikke føler seg komfortable med å svare på engelsk vil jeg mer enn gjerne hjelpe til som tolk, så bare skriv i vei på norsk :)

 

To Peggy: I've just explained about your first thread regarding this topic, and stated my willingness to serve as an interpreter in the (likely) case that somebody would prefer to reply in Norwegian.

 

 

Thank you! Thank you! :D

[Berit Knudsen]

You will find the parents and birth of Inga Marie in the old thread.

[Leif Biberg Kristensen]

Here are Berit's links, reposted here for the sake of convenience.

 

Inga Marie Rønning's christening: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=16362&idx_id=16362&uid=ny&idx_side=-87

 

Family in 1865: http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=37&filnamn=f61601&gardpostnr=1392&personpostnr=17833&merk=17833#ovre

 

Family in 1875: http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=8&filnamn=f71660&gardpostnr=371&personpostnr=2890&merk=2890#ovre

 

Inga with mother and sister in 1900: http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=9&filnamn=f01601&gardpostnr=7201&personpostnr=33809&merk=33809#ovre

 

Inga in 1910: http://da.digitalarkivet.no/ft/person/pf01036708095221/

 

Inga's death in Bergen Jan 15 1911: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=5244&idx_id=5244&uid=ny&idx_side=-125

[Berit Knudsen]

Thank you Leif. I hope you can keep on helping.

 

I am looking for Jens Jensen and I found one in 1875 http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=6&filnamn=f71601&gardpostnr=484&personpostnr=6585&merk=6585#ovre and I belive the same man in 1900 http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=19&filnamn=f01103&gardpostnr=5306&personpostnr=23366&merk=23366#ovre His marriage no.0 http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=6267&idx_id=6267&uid=ny&idx_side=-140 and in St.Johannes church no.26 http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=3661&idx_id=3661&uid=ny&idx_side=-30

[Peggy Stanley]

Wow - thank you so much!

 

So now I know that my great grandmother, Inga, had two brothers and a sister! It looks like my grandfather was her only child. So sad that she died so young - she never got to know that she had eight grandchildren. She died the year my father, the oldest grandchild, was born - 1911.

 

On the records that were found for Jens Jensen, I see that they all list him as born in 1850, not 1851 as it says on my grandfather's birth record? Is there something else in the records that points to it being the right Jens Jenssen? I'm straining my eyes trying to see if I can recognize any of the same names in the birth record as in some of the other records, but it is so hard to read! Let me know if you recognize something that I am not seeing.

 

Again, thank you!

[Peggy Stanley]

I found a Jens Jenssen in the 1875 census, born in Trondheim in 1851. If I'm interpreting it correctly it looks like he was a sailor, which would make sense since my grandfather became a sailor.

 

http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&a=b&filnamn=f71601

 

The family unit is kind of confusing - it looks like the mother is 20 years older than the father, who is definitely too young to be the father of Jens Jenssen. Also different last names, so I guess it's a blended family?

 

If anyone could tell me if I'm interpreting his occupation correctly, I would really appreciate it, and is there anything that might connect with my grandfather's birth record that would tell me for sure if it's the same Jens Jenssen.

 

Thank You!

[Leif Biberg Kristensen]

I suppose this is the link to that family: http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=5&filnamn=f71601&gardpostnr=478&personpostnr=6437&merk=6437#ovre

 

I too find this very confusing. Seems like the counter has taken leave off his census :)

[Peggy Stanley]

I suppose this is the link to that family: http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=5&filnamn=f71601&gardpostnr=478&personpostnr=6437&merk=6437#ovre

 

I too find this very confusing. Seems like the counter has taken leave off his census :)

 

 

I know! And I just noticed, if it's him, it appears he was a twin! Does it indeed say he was a sailor?

 

One more question (maybe :) ) Is there someone I could contact that would be able to look at the actual birth record and maybe decipher some of the other names? I have a gut feeling that this might be him, but I hate putting information on my Ancestry page without know for sure. So many people do that and you can really get lead down a merry path of misinformation.

[Leif Biberg Kristensen]

I started to write a reply here several times yesterday night, but due to high load the connection timed out, and I lost the text.

 

The note "Matros Forsørges af Faderen" means "sailor supported by his father", yes.

 

If he's born in Trondheim, that's a rather big haystack. There are several parishes, and I don't know where to start looking for him. Maybe somebody here could help, but I think that you should be a little more specific in the title; eg. "Looking for Jens Jensen b. Trondheim 1851" would probably help. You can edit the title of the thread if you open the first posting.

[Leif Biberg Kristensen]

Here's the same household in 1865. It makes some more sense, and the info is much more detailed:

 

http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=6&filnamn=f61601&gardpostnr=377&personpostnr=4930&merk=4930#ovre

 

If this is the family of your ancestor is quite another matter, though. It's peculiar if he's dropped the surname Trøen for a common patronym like Jensen, but of course it's possible.

[Peggy Stanley]

Leif, I appear to be a dunce and I cannot seem to figure out how to change the title. :(

I went to the first post and hit edit, but that seems to only let me edit the body of the message. What is the magic button?

 

So, this family is pretty interesting - which makes me think for sure they must be mine! :D It just seems to fit that if he was a sailor and Inga worked on steamboats that they certainly could have met that way. And then my grandfather became a sailor and a deep sea fisherman - life on the water. I grew up fishing with my dad - I always called him 'the old man of the sea' after Hemingway's novel.

 

I still have one aunt living on my dad's side of the family and I am going to get in touch with her and see if she has some tid bit of information that might help me solve this. Maybe I can also find someone involved in the history of Trondheim that could help me. My experience with this ancestry thing is to keep digging - a little clue here and a little clue there and it eventually all comes together.

 

I sure appreciate all your help! I'm definitely coming back to Norway when I get this all figured out. And then I'm going to write a book! Just a few things on my to-do list!

[Hanne Line Osberg Eide]

FT1865: http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=18&filnamn=f61601&gardpostnr=377&personpostnr=4928#nedre

[Hanne Line Osberg Eide]

FT1865

 

Listenr. Side Gardnr Gate Kjøpstad Tal på garden

377 378 262 1 Enkelskillingsveiten Trondhjem 16

 

Personnr. Nytt hushald Førenamn Etternamn Fam. stilling Yrke Sivilstand Alder Kjønn Fødestad

4923 1 1 Ingebrigt Jens. Tømmermand g 60 m Ringebo

4924 2 Elen Jens.* f Buaas hans Kone g 64 k Strinden

4925 3 1 Lars Lund Skomager g 45 m Strinden

4926 4 Bereth Lund* f Staals. hans Kone g 49 k Levanger

4927 5 Emilie Lund deres Datter ug 16 k Trondhjem

4928 6 1 Ludvig Trøen Fisker g 27 m Trondhjem

4929 7 Bolette Trøen* f Arnesd. hans Kone g 42 k Trondhjem

4930 8 Jens Andreas Trøen* deres Barn ug 17 m Trondhjem

4931 9 Julie Gartine Trøen* deres Barn ug 14 k Trondhjem

4932 10 Edward Hilmar Trøen* deres Barn ug 4 m Trondhjem

4933 11 !! Neergaard Byetjener ug 75 m Trondhjem

4934 12 Hakon Neergaard Søfarende ug 23 m Trondhjem

4935 13 Anton Hans. Logerende Blikkenslager ug 24 m Nord Thj. Amt

4936 14 Ingebrigt Kolstad Logerende Slagterdreng ug 20 m Ringeboe

4937 15 Johanne Dahl Logerende ug 52 k Trondhjem

4938 16 Jonetta Henriks. ug 66 k Frosten

 

 

 

[Hanne Line Osberg Eide]

It might be Bolettes second marriage? Jens and Julie may be children of the first marriage with a man nameded Jens. Edward Hilmar might be from the second marriage.

[Hanne Line Osberg Eide]

http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=30&filnamn=KF16011866d&gardpostnr=61&personpostnr=181#nedre

 

Prot. ref. Side Lp.nr. År Dato Sokn/Kyrkje Merknad

61 Trondheim Domkirke Mini 601.A22 209 25 1866 08.04.1866 Domkirken Att.af Spørck

 

Rolle Stilling Førenamn Etternamn Kjønn Fødestad Fødd dato Fødd år Døypt Vaksinert Karakter

181 Konfirmant Julie Gertine Jensen K Strinden 26.06 1851 20.07.1851 V. 01.08.1857 Godt

182 Far Arbeidsmd. Mortinus Jensen Godt

183 Mor Hustr. Bolette Andrea Arnesd. Løkke Godt

 

 

Julies father is a Mortinus Jensen.

 

 

[Hanne Line Osberg Eide]

http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=33&filnamn=KF16011866d&gardpostnr=1600&personpostnr=4798#nedre

 

Prot. ref. Side Lp.nr. År Dato Sokn/Kyrkje Merknad

1600 Trondheim Domkirke Mini 601.A22 (007) 24 1877 07.10.1877 Domkirken Att. af Salvesen.

 

Rolle Stilling Førenamn Etternamn Kjønn Bustad Fødestad Fødd dato Fødd år Alder Døypt Vaksinert Karakter

4798 Konfirmant Edvard Hilmar Trøen M øvre Møllenberg, Rasmus Lunds Grd. Domsognet 11.06 1862 15 1/3 Aar 27.07.1862 V. 11.06.1870 temlig godt, tunghørt, lidet begavet

4799 Far Søfarende Ludvig Kristian Trøen Thjem 15 1/3 Aar temlig godt, tunghørt, lidet begavet

4800 Mor H. Bolette Andreasd. 15 1/3 Aar temlig godt, tunghørt, lidet begavet

 

 

 

 

 

[Hanne Line Osberg Eide]

http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=39&filnamn=vi16011840dk&gardpostnr=1218&personpostnr=4861#nedre

 

Prot. ref. Side Lp.nr. År Vigd Sokn/Kyrkje

1218 Domkirken MINI601A21 35 7 1862 30.03. 1862 Domkirken

 

Rolle Stilling Førenamn Etternamn Fødestad Alder

4861 Brudgom Søfarende Ludvig Christian Ingebrigtsen Trøen Thjem 24 1/2

4862 Brur Enke Bolette Andrea Arntsdtr. Thjem 36

4863 Brudgom far Ingebrigt Olsen Trøen

4864 Brur far Arnt Pellegaard

[Hanne Line Osberg Eide]

http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=56&filnamn=dp16601841bak&gardpostnr=453&personpostnr=1357#nedre

 

Prot. ref. Side Lp.nr. År Døypt

453 Bakklandet (Bakke) MINI 604A04 45 14 1849 09.04. 1849

 

Rolle Stilling Førenamn Etternamn Kjønn Fødd dato Fødd år Ekte/uekte

1357 Barn Jens Andreas M 14.03. 1849 E

1358 Far Arbmd. Martinus Jensen

1359 Mor Kone Bolette Andrea f. Pellegaard

 

 

Seems like this Jens Jensen was born 14.03.1849 (not 1850/1851). :unsure:

[Hanne Line Osberg Eide]

In the baptizm record of Kristian Edvard the father has a occupation starting with "handel". The candidate that Berit found, seems to be a good one. Why didnt you follow that track?

 

 

[Leif Biberg Kristensen]

We discussed that in the other thread, but «handelsreisende» Jens Jensen born 1851 is a little elusive.

 

What candidate do you mean, Hanne?

[Peggy Stanley]

Thanks Hanne, I think you solved that mystery and it doesn't appear to be him if he was born in 1849. I guess I got hung up on the '1851' birth year. So I went back to the one that Berit found and tried to find him in the 1865 census and I think this is him: (am I doing my links correctly? They look ridiculously long?)

 

 

http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebCens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=45&filnamn=f61103&gardpostnr=635&personpostnr=6454&merk=6454#ovre

 

I see his father's middle name is Christian and he is a Skipper. I don't get a sensible translation for Jens Jensen's occupation in either the 1865 or 1875 censuses. I was told that his occupation in my grandfather's birth record translates to "traveling salesman." Does that seem accurate?

 

Also, the last person listed under Godparents in grandfather's birth record appears to have the last name Jensen, but I cannot make out the first name. Any luck with that? If I could find someone else from this family on that document then I would know. I'm sure I see Ingeborg Ronning in the last column so I feel very confident about his mother's line. It's this Jens Jenssen who is the illusive guy. :)

[Leif Biberg Kristensen]

Generally, fathers of illegitimate children are notoriously hard to identify. "Jens Jensen" is a rather common name, and we have no guarantee that it's even his real name, or that the birth year is correct. The information appears to be based on what he has told the child's mother. Even if it is all true, there are no clues as to where he's from.

 

He may also have alternated between using his patronym, his father's patronym, another surname or farm name; as Norway had no fixed surnames at the time, that was perfectly legal.

 

There may exist some legal documents concerning child support, and I figure those may contain more info about the guy. This is not my usual line of research, but maybe somebody else here have explored that route?

[Stian Høiset]

Generally, fathers of illegitimate children are notoriously hard to identify.

 

Indeed. I have this example in my research work. At the very bottom, baptism no. 26, the girl's name is 'Anlaug'.

 

The 'official' father to the illegitimate child is a named, unmarried day worker who was staying in the parish for a while, and then left. In the 'comments' column, though, the unfortunate mother has admitted to the vicar (and the parish clerk) that this public information is not true, but that the real father is a well-known parish bachelor who lived close to her family. So avoiding social difficult situations may be the reason why so many fathers of illegitimate children were, apparently, 'traveling'.

 

I was lucky to talk to living members of this family when they were alive, and they knew, but kept this secret until they got old of age.