[#10081] Opplysninger om Rosalia Larson fra Kristiansund (?), død Chicago 1903.

[Gjest Arne-Sten Christiansen]

Søker informasjon om min farmor, Rosalia Larson, som trolig kom fra Kristiansunds-kanten, født 1866 (dato ukjent). I 1895 var hun gift med min farfar, Adolf Syver Christiansen fra Kristiania og hadde nettopp født datteren Ione. I 1903 ble min far født i Chicago, Ruben Daniel. Han ble døpt i St. Pauls N. Luth. menighet. Etter fødselen døde Rosalia. Adressen i Chicago var 545 N. Rockwell st. Adolf Syver giftet seg på nytt med Serine Sivertsdatter Grip fra Grip. Familien returnerte til Norge omkring 1908.Men jeg har ikke fått mye greie på Rosalie. Alle som kunne svare direkte er døde. Hun er født et år for seint til folketellinga i 1865. Finner ikke navnet i tellinga fra 1875 (ufullstendig i digitalarkivet?) Har prøvd 'Family search' og 'Ellis Island'. Har vært gjennom branskadde kirkebøker for Kristiansund uten å lykkes. Har kommet over en emigrant i digitalarkivet som kanskje kan være henne, utvandret fra Kristiania 17 år gammel, uten tilsynelatende nærmeste familie, med mål New York (???)Tungvint å ikke bo på steder der det er Riks- eller statsarkiv.Her er vel litt få holdpunkter? Kan noen likevel gi noe hjelp?

[Gjest Svein Arnolf Bjørndal]

Du kunne jo prøve å skrive til Statsarkivet i Trondheim. De har 1875-tellingen. Giftet de seg i Kristiansund (eller omegn) eller i Kristiania?

[Gjest Arne-Sten Christianen]

Takk for tips, men bruker de å svare på slike spørsmål på Statsarkivet?Jeg vet ikke hvor de giftet seg, men tror nå at det må ha vært i USA de møttes og giftet seg.

[Gjest Sigbjørn Sandsmarks]

Eg har fått svar fra Statsarkivet i Trondheim på liknende spørsmål,likedann i Kristiansand,tror dei har en regel om at dei kan bruke en halv time på slike spørsmål.

[Gjest Laila N. Christiansen]

Hei! Det skulle ikke forundre med om dette er din Rosalia som emigrerer fra Kristiania i 1882 17 år gammel se her [url="http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&filnamn=arkivverket/emikra1&variabel=0&postnr=59655&fulle=true&spraak=F>Lenke og da tror jeg faktisk at hun også bodde i 1875 i Kristiania

[Gjest Laila N. Christiansen]

Aha! Ikke nok med det! Hele familien dro til Chicago i 1872, så de kom nok fort hjem igjen tenker jeg! Se her Lenke men de var jo da i Kristiania i 1875. Faren Hans hadde da sannsynligvis giftet seg på nytt.Så, Rosalie dro da igjen alene i 1882.

[Gjest Arne-Sten Christiansen]

Det er kjenkt når folk engasjerer seg i å hjelpe til og her er det jo også en samme etternavn som meg selv.Likevel er jeg litt usikker på om vi har tak i rett Rosalia/e. At det var en Roasalie Larsen som utvandret fra Kristiania 17 år gammel kjente jeg jo til. Dette med familien til Hans Larsen som reiste over var ukjent for meg. Familien har oppgitt Drammen som hjemsted. Og seinere har Rosalie oppgitt Kristiania. Jeg har alltid trodd at familien kom fra Kristiansund eller der omkring. Det kan jo selvfølgelig være en sammenblanding med det at min farfars 2. kone var fra Grip. Jeg trodde altså at begge var fra det området. Hva får deg til å tro at Hans var gift på ny da Rosalia utvandret for 2. gang?Hvordan kan jeg få vite at dette er rette familie? Jeg har søkt på endel av Hans Larsen, født 1830 (+/- 2år) i 1865-tellinga uten å være sikker på å funnet den rette (forløpig ikke sjekket fylker som ikke samsvarer med det jeg vet til nå).Jeg har forøvrig sendt en forespørsel til statsarkivet i Trondheim. Men om Rosalia ikke kommer fra Kristiansund-kanten, blir det vel gjerne bom på den henvendelsen. Det tar vel også noe tid å få svar derfra (men tid er ikke noe problem her.)Takk til alle som bryr seg!

[Gjest Laila N. Christiansen]

Jeg skal svare deg mer om hvorfor jeg mener det jeg mener, men, i vårt 'fag' må du ikke TRO! det er det prester og preddddikanter som har som jobb.Jeg er fortsatt 99.9% sikker på at detter er din Rosalie, navnet er nemlig nesten hakket før sjelden, og at det er 2 stk. som emigrerer, og har i tillegg Larsen, nope. SIkker!Kommer tilbake med mere av mine helt sikre usikre ting i morra! Laila (som har hatt rett før)

[Gjest Laila N. Christiansen]

Hei igjen! Nå skal vi se.I 1865 finnner vi denne familien i Drammen [url="http://www.rhd.uit.no/folketellinger/ftliste.aspx?ft=1865_bokmål&knr=0602&kenr=0286&bnr=0286&ln=000>Lenke Hans Larsen og hans kone Anne Kristine Hansen. Disse emigrerer i 1872, Hans Larsen, hans kone Anne Kristine og barna Josefine, Hansine, Hulda, Frithjof, Rosalie, Doren, Eaugenie, og Leopold.I 1875 er familien tilbake i Norge, da i Krania

[Gjest Roger Thauland]

Perhaps i can do lookups- i see that the only Rosalia Larson and Adolf Christenson marriage was sep 17 1891, Cook county. Would someone put the info about them into English? Does the cert about her 1903 death need to be found? Who is Rubin? Did Adolf stay in Chicago? Thank you, Roger.

[Gjest Laila N. Christiansen]

Hi Roger! This is the info: Rosalie Larson born abt 1866. In 1895 she was married to Adolf Syver Christiansen from Kristiania, and had just given birth to the daughter Ione. In 1903 Ruben Daniel (Arne-Stens father) born in Chicago, christened in St. Pauls N. Luth.Rosalia died just after given birth to Ruben. The adress in Chicago was 545 N. Rockwell St.Adolf Syver Christiansen remarried Serine Sivertsdatter Grip from Grip. The family returned to Norway around 1908....If you Roger could find the marriage for Rosalia and Adolf, it would maybe give her fathers name, and we could see if the Rosalia Larsen I found is the right one. Laila

[Gjest Kathy Bergan Schmidt]

I believe that St. Paul's Norwegian Lutheran Church of 1903 is today St. Paul's Community Church of Wicker Park, 2215 W. North Avenue, Chicago IL 60647. The records are only available from the church itself. I will e-mail(seems to be the quickest way to get a reply) the pastor today and see if we can get the needed information.

[Gjest Arne-Sten Christianen]

Takk til Laila! Dette var interessant. Min informasjon om at familien kom fra Kristiansundsområdet må nok ha vært feil. Men jeg er svært interessert i videre undersøkelser i USA. Derfor fortsetter jeg her på engelsk.Yes, I'm very interested in all information I can get about my grandparents stay in USA. All of them was dead before I was born. My father did not talk much about his family (died in 1978). But I have some stories that can help me and some letters, birth-sertificat and other written information.Adolf Syver must have left Kristiania after 1885 where he was working in the fire-department until then. I have not found him in the emigrant-records. But he had been a boatsman earlier so may be he worked on a ship across the Atlantic. I think he was living in Chicago in 1892. But in 1895 I am sure he lived in Los Angeles, where he had a farm. My aunt Ione was probably born there. And then, when my father was born, he was back in Chicago. My grandfather and his new wife and two children went back to Norway about 1908. (Ione did not stay in Norway for long time, she went back to USA. There were som family there. Among them a cousine Ruth. Ione died in Los Angeles in 1977). A marriage-licens for Rosalie and Adolf Syver would probably give information about the parents of Rosalie? So Roger, I would be thankful if you could manage to look it up.

[Gjest Arne-Sten Christianen]

While I was writing, Kathy came up with a good suggestion. Thank you! Arne-Sten

[Gjest Kathy Bergan Schmidt]

A marriage license from Illinois at that time only gives the name, age, and place of residence of the bride and groom, and the name of the minister (or other official) doing the marrying. And in the case of my own family, the residence given is usually not very helpful -- for example, it will say 'Chicago'. The Norwegian church records do name the fathers of the bride and groom. But locating those church records can be a challenge.

[Gjest Roger Thauland]

Kathy is correct, often the church itself is also listed, perhaps we will be 'lucky' and the pastor will be Torgerson (think Norsk marriage mill, hehe--). Those records are on microfilm in Elk Grove Village, so i emailed the Lutheran records center asking for a 'lookup'. Perhaps Kathy or i can find the death cert and if Pedersen handled the services then that can be found on film.

[Gjest Roger Thauland]

Kathy, does the CL FHC have the film for 1891 marriages? The pastor name is needed as ELCA does not have a license DB or film. I am traveling and can look at my usual FHC, if not, but it will be a couple weeks--(their collection is growing rapidly). Thank you, Roger.

[Gjest Kathy Bergan Schmidt]

The records are at St. Paul's Community Church of Wicker Park, not at the ELCA archives. St. Paul's was not part of ELCA and is no longer part of the Evangelical Lutheran Synod whose archives are in Mankato, Minnesota. That much I determined when searching for some of my own family. There are no Norwegian Lutheran church records at the Crystal Lake Family History Center, only the Pedersen Funeral Home records because I placed them on indefinite loan. Do you mean official Cook County Records when you say 'the film for 1891' marriages? If such exists for loan to the FHCs, I don't know if it's at Crystal Lake, but I doubt it. CL FHC is only a few years old and doesn't have a large collection of Chicago items there.I did e-mail St. Paul's earlier today. With a little bit of luck, perhaps we will get an answer soon.

[Gjest Roger Thauland]

Yes, i mean Cook records, its likely the marriage was at a ELCA church, there were several of them near the loop. Wilmette has a ever expanding collection, each order is placed on indefinite hold these days.

[Gjest Kathy Bergan Schmidt]

I received a reply from St. Paul's pastor and the news isn't good. To quote: Sorry that we will not be able to respond to your request. Old records simply do not exist any longer here at St. Paul's Community Church.We have some records written in a book around the year 1907. They are hard to read because they are written in Norwegian. We simply do not know what became of all the records of births, marriages, baptisms, confirmations , from the turn of the century. It is very frustrating for us that we are not able to answer requests such as yours.Arne identified the church as St. Paul's Norwegian Lutheran which is the right name for St. Paul's Community Church in 1903 so it looks like locating church records is a 'dead end'.

[Gjest Arne-Sten Christiansen]

I understand that Kathy and Roger are clever to deal with theese matters. I'm realy thankfull for the job you are doing. St. Pauls Norwegian Lutheran church was were my father was baptised. I understand that there is no hope to find information about the burial of Rosalie there. But there is may be other sources. I see my father had a report of birth from 'Vital statistics department - County Clerks office'. I don't understand this CL FHC. Is there still hope to find something? Arne-Sten

[Gjest Roger Thauland]

CL = Crystal Lake, a town (where i attended high school) McHenry county, northwest of Chicago in Illinois. FHC= Family History Center--of the LDS church, the Mormons. I use one in Lake county that is expanding its Cook county collection (includes Chicago). Please tell the exact date of birth, i can use that to help focus on finding her death certificate. That will show the undertaker and cemetery. With some good luck those may provide some additional info. The Pedersen FH was used by some Norwegian's, their records are on LDS film and usually contain extra helpful info such as which newspapers published the obit. Please also indicate the exact name spellings. Roger.

[Gjest Kathy Bergan Schmidt]

Hello, Arne-Sten. There are still some things we can try. The CL FHC means Crystal Lake Family History Center. It is the small research area in the local Mormon Church where people can go when it is open and use the microfilms they have rented from the Family History Library in Salt Lake City. You can only use the FHC films there. What is available at a Family History Center depends upon the interests of the users. In the Chicago area there are a number of such centers and each one may have a number of films in a particular area of research that is determined by the interests of the patrons there. For example, I am building up a 'stash' of Norwegian church records on 'indefinite loan' that just so happen to be from the churchs my ancestors were members of . . .At Crystal Lake, they have the Chicago Death Index from 1871 to 1917. That should give us the death certificate number for Rosalie. From the death certificate we can find out the exact date of death and where she is buried. It will also tell what funeral director handled the services. The Pedersen Funeral Home Records for that time period are already at the Crystal Lake FHC and it will be easy to look up her name and see if that funeral home was used. I plan to look at those two sources when they are open tomorrow afternoon.I also found an 'Adolph Christianson' on the 1892 Voter Registration for Chicago on ancestry.com. The record said that he had been in the state for 11 years and had become a citizen in November 1889 in the Circuit Court of Cook County. That would mean he emigrated about 1881. Could that be Adolf Syver Christiansen? His address in 1892 was 23 Ashland Avenue.And, as Roger stated, there is the marriage of Adolph Christianson and Rosalie Larson on 17 September 1891, Chicago, Cook County, number 00172598 that is on the Illinois Marriage Index. If those are your grandparents, that is quite a few years before the birth of your father and perhaps the marriage took place at another Norwegian Lutheran church and not St. Paul's. Marriage records are not available on microfilm so a copy of the marriage record would have to be ordered from the Cook County clerk's office. I find what church by checking the minister's name in a old book about all the Norwegian Lutheran ministers in America, find the church they were at when the marriage occurred, and then try to find the church records. Some records have been microfilmed and are at the ELCA Archives, some are still at the churches, or some have been lost as have St. Paul's.Maybe I'll have a bit of luck tomorrow with the death records. . .

[Gjest Roger Thauland]

Good luck Kathy, ....but marriage certificates are on LDS film, i have found them for several of my family...if this is an open issue in about 2 weeks when i can get to Wilmette i'll see if the 1891 reel is on hold. (This center has recently decided to place all Cook reels on hold with only 1 order)

[Gjest Arne-Sten Christiansen]

Once again thank you Kathy and Roger! It is good to hear that there is still hope finding more information. Roger asked for the exact time of birth. I have no date and year of birth are not same in different sources. In my fathers report of birth it says that Rosalie was 37 (1903). That should be 1866. In the norwegian 1875-census it says 1865 (if that is the correct Rosalie, and that is one of the things I want to find out). Also Adolf Syver has different year and date of birth. In his birth-sertificat it says april 17. 1854 (or is it 1857?) His birthday was always celbrated marz 3. Other information says he was born in 1858.Roger also ask for exact name spellings. Seems that they where not so accurate about this at that time. Rosalia/Rosalie/Rose/Rosilie Larsen (Larson). Adolf Syver Christiansen (with many different close up versions of the name).To Katy: I don't think the Adolph Christiansen on the 1892 voter registration is my grandfather. I have a testimonial from his employer in Norway dated june 1885 where it says he leaves the job for the purpose of going to America.Hope there is som useful information here.Arne-Sten