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Gjest Seppo Sippu

[#80496] Iver Ramsland (* 1848 Arendal), father of Gerh. J. Ramsland (* 1880 Grimstad)?

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Gjest Seppo Sippu

Iver RAMSLAND, born in Arendal, Aust-Agder, Norway on 4 September 1848, son of tanner (garver) Jonas Ramsland. Listed in the Arendal 1865 census as a sailor (søemand) with his parents. Emigrated to the USA in 1875. Settled in Cook county, Illinois, in 1880. Naturalized as a US citizen by the Cook county circuit court on 27 August 1889. Lived at 768 W. 22nd Street, Chicago, Cook county, Illinois in 1890. Lived in Hyde Park township, Cook county, in 1900, working as timekeeper in a carshop. Returned from a trip to Norway by a ship sailing from Kristiansand S. on 2 October 1909 to New York. Lived in Paris, Edgar county, Illinois in 1909--10, still working as a timekeeper in a carshop; unmarried. Iver's brother, agent Sikard (Sichard, Sieghard) Andreas Adolph RAMSLAND, who was born in Arendal on 23 January 1858 and who is listed with his parents in the Arendal 1865 census, also emigrated to the USA, was naturalized as a US citizen by Cook county circuit court on 15 July 1889, returned in 1890 from a trip to Europe (probably Norway) back to his home in Chicago, sailing from Hamburg to New York, married in Cook county in 1897, returned in 1912 from another trip to Norway back to his home in Depew, Buffalo county, New York, sailing from Kristiansand to New York, and died in Cook county, Illinois on 8 December 1917. My question is: Is the above Iver Ramsland identical to skipper (skibsfører) Iver RAMSLAND who is named in the list of births and christenings of Fjære prestegjæld, Aust-Agder as the father of an illegitimate (uægte) son born to maid (pige) Grethe Johanne Garsdatter in Grimstad on 29 July 1880? This illegitimate son of Iver Ramsland was my maternal grandfather, who emigrated to Finland in 1908. The mother, Grethe Johanne, who in her later years in Grimstad used the surname GARSEN (or GAHRSEN), was born in Birkenes, Aust-Agder in 1841 and died in Grimstad in 1913. Her ancestors are well-known to me from genealogies published in the various parish histories of Aust-Agder and Vest-Agder. I have also browsed genealogies published in the Helleland parish history, showing, among other lines, the male line from Trond Erikson Lauperak of Bjerkreim down to Jonas Ramsland, the father of Iver. I have previously posted my inquires to several mailing lists hosted by Rootsweb.com, such as Norway, IL-Chicago-Norwegians, and Gen-Nordic. The above summarizes the information I have obtained thus far. I wonder if it would make any sense to browse the court records of Arendal and Grimstad around 1880 for any court case possibly pertaining to claimed maintenance for the illegitimate child. Also, I would like to find a passport record that would show when Iver left the Arendal & Grimstad area. He must have travelled with a Norwegian passport until 1889 (the year of his naturalization), perhaps first granted by the politikammer of Arendal, and later, when that expired, one granted by some Norwegian consulate in the USA. As the year, 1875, given as the first year Iver was in the USA is earlier than 1880, he must have made a trip back to Norway in 1879, in order to make it possible to become the father of a child born on 29 July 1880. The American sources indicate that he at least moved his place of abode in 1880 (settling then in Cook county, Illinois). I would appreciate any help you might be able to provide. Seppo Sippu sippu@cs.helsinki.fi

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Gjest Jarl V. Erichsen

Hi Seppo. This is interesting, but I cant give you information now. I have to study it. I live at Fevik (in Fjære and near Arendal) and I know of people with the Ramsland name here. And I have Gahrsen in my family, and Gahr was - in census 1865 - quite unusual. - Jarl -

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Gjest Jarl V. Erichsen

Here is the bapt. in 1880, but you know this. I will look in the written 'bygdebøker' on Kroken and Thaule to see if they are there. Lenke

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Gjest Seppo Sippu

Thank you, Jarl. Yes, I have a copy of Gerhard Johan Ramsland's baptism record, as well as of the record of his confirmation on 21 April 1895 (n:o 35/1895, page 304, Grimstad ministerialbok A 2, 1882-1912, konfirmerte 1882-1910). The confirmation record also gives the parents' names as Skibsfører Iver Ramsland and Grete Johanne Garsd[atter].Gerh. J. Ramsland was a shipbroker (skibsmægler, skeppsmäklare, laivameklari) by occupation. He was employed by Tjøstel S. Myhre in Grimstad in 1897 to 1903, by Andreas Gjersøe in Fredrikstad from 1903 to 1904, and was a partner at Hauger & Co. in Kristiania for a while. With a passport issued by the police department in Kristiania on 26 August 1908 he came to Kotka, Finland, where he was employed by Cadenius & Grahn, and later by J. Bruhn (which was later merged with Federation Stevedoring, later called Kotka Stevedoring, now Steveco). He died in Kotka on 3 August 1953, still a Norwegian citizen.Gerh. J. Ramsland had a lifelong friend in Grimstad, Mathias P. MOLLAND, with whom he was in regular correspondence until his death. Gerhard was married in Kotka in 1912 to Lilja Aleksandra (Lilli) ROSENBLAD (1882-1977). In the 1960s, Lilli Ramsland was in correspondence with her late husband's relative (a cousin?) from Norway, Mathilde SALVESEN, who also made a visit to Kotka once.Seppo.

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Gjest Jarl V. Erichsen

Mathias Molland? Was he a man with a shop here? I have seen Tjøstel S. Myhre's name in old newspapers.I have, until now, not found your family in the bygdebok of Taule (Fjære bygdebok - Krogen krets).- Jarl -

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Gjest Per Holte Rosenkilde

Tjøstel Myhre came from Vegårshei and married into the Frivold family. I find it unlikely that he was a relative of Iver or Johanne, whose families arrived from the west.Seppo, to relate Mathilde to the family we need to know if Salvesen was her maiden name or the name of her husband.The key question here is whether the sailor Iver Ramsland in 1895 is identical with the skipper with the same name in 1880. Of course the most likely answer is yes, but a confirmation would always be wellcome. The answer may possibly be found in Arendal. Aust-Agder-arkivet had a project creating a database of sailing ships from the towns of Aust-Agder. They may have some information on the skipper there, Jarl, with luck enough to document the identity beyond reasonable doubt. Seppo: It would be very helpful in that search if you know which shipowner Iver sailed for as a captain.Mvh Per

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Gjest Seppo Sippu

Jarl, yes, I remember my mother saying that Mathias P. Molland was a shopkeeper. Per, Salvesen must have been the name of Mathilde's husband. On Saturday 19 August 1950, Grimstad Adressetidende (n:o 64/1950) published a story of a visit my mother's brother Leif Ramsland and his wife paid to Grimstad: ''En sønn av Gerhard J. Ramsland i Finnland, Leif Ramsland på visitt i sin fars fødeby Grimstad. Hvor han har hilst på familie og sin fars venner. ... Gerhard Ramsland som nå er 70 år, har ikke vært i Grimstad siden 1921, men har stadigt stått i brevveksling, deriblant med Mathias P. Molland, som torsdag hadde den glede å kunne vise Leif Ramsland og frue rundt i Grimstad. Av familien hilste Leif Ramsland og frue på fru Mathilde Salvesen, fru Olga Holst og agent Just Ramsland, og av farens venner, Mathias P. Molland, G. M. Tobiassen og A. E. Andersen. ...'' Per, I have no other information about Gerhard's father Iver Ramsland except that he was a skipper or a shipmaster. My mother once told me having asked her father about his ancestors, but Gerhard had been unwilling to discuss about the matter---for the obvious reason of which my mother, at that time, was unaware---and he had just said briefly that his father was a shipmaster and that his grandfather was a tanner (which indeed was Jonas Ramsland's occupation). Seppo.

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Gjest Per Holte Rosenkilde

I think you have given sufficient evidence to verify that the sailor and the shipmaster indeed are one and the same persons. Allthough there was an abudance of saylors in Grimstad at that time (relatively speaking, the town peaked at 3000 inhabitants in 1900), the number of tanners was limited.I will try to prod a little more prodding into the family members next time I go down there, but I feel quite confident about the identification.Per

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Gjest Per Holte Rosenkilde

It was easier than expected. You may find the family in Grimstad in 1900. Mathilde (1886), Olga (1884) and Just all live there with their mother Julie, then a widow. In the same house also live Bendix and Gunda Ramsland, Bendix is born i Arendal.A check at Arendal 1865 reveals that Bendix and Gunda are a brother and a sister of Iver. As a last check I looked up the baptism of Just (use the 'klokkerbok', the vicar had a handwriting that was, well, personalized), his father Arend Oluf Ramsland, also a sailor, was another brother of Iver.From the story in Grimstad Adressetidende we know that Just and his sisters were Gerhard's family. Now I feel confident that they were his cousins.I have not looked further into Jonas Ramsland's wife, as it looks like you have that information.Per

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Gjest Seppo Sippu

Per, many thanks to you for your help! Somehow I always thought that Mathilde Salvesen was related to Gerhard Ramsland via his mother Grethe Johanne Garsen, who had several siblings, but now you show that she was a Ramsland and indeed Gerhard's first cousin! With warmest greetings, Seppo.

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Gjest Jarl V. Erichsen

Look in Landgraffs 'Grimstadslægter' on p 214: LenkeAlso read the note at the bottom.Maybe we have to translate this? (Its too late for me to night, may be tomorrow..?)- Jarl -

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Gjest Seppo Sippu

Jarl, Gerh. J. Ramsland's father Iver Ramsland --- after Per Holte Rosenkilde's recent postings I now dare to say so --- was a son of tanner Jonas Ivarssen Ramsland (born on 4 August 1820 in Helleland and died on 5 September 1867 in Grimstad), whose father Ivar Jonassen Ramsland (born 1798) was a brother of the tanner Tron Jonassen Ramsland mentioned in Landgraff's Grimstadslægter.Seppo.

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Gjest Seppo Sippu

Grimstad ministerialbok 1882-1910 A3, ekteviede, page 46v, entry nr. 2/1903, states that mate (styrmand) Mathias Andreas Holst from Grimstad, born in Arendal on 8 February 1875, son of skipper Frithjof Hagbart Holst, and shop assistant (butikjomfru) Olga Margrethe Ramsland from Grimstad, born in Grimstad on 7 May 1884, daughter of the late shipmaster Arnt Oluf Ramsland, were married on 25 April 1903. This is consistent with and further verifies what Per writes above.Seppo.

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Gjest Kjell Knudsen

Re: entry #7. Interesteing with the story from the 'Adressa' as the newspaper is called locally. Gerh. Ramsland's friends G.M. Tobiassen and A. E. Andersen are my wife's maternal and paternal grandfathers. Mathias Molland quite rigt was a shop keeper, an iron-monger.(Laura Reiersens Efterfølgere). In a photo album from the Andersn family, there is a photo depicting three young men. 'Berge, Ramsland and papa', says the text beneath the photo. In the 1920ies, perhaps 1926, Tobiassen, Ramsland and Kvarsnes went from Grimstad to Hirtshals in an open boat. For navigation they brought a life boat compass. Both Tobiassen and Kvarsnes were former sea officers, perhaps Gerh. Ramsland was one as well? Nevertheless on the return trip they ended up in Mandal, which is about 100 kilometers to the weat of Grimstad. The compass is now in my wife's posession.Kjell

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Kjell, this is a most interesting coincidence! After my mother Solveig, Gerh. J. Ramsland's daughter, died in 2003, aged almost 84, I scanned most of the old photographs that had passed to her from her parents. I put two of these photographs, taken about 1900 and showing Gerhard with his friends, at http://koti.mbnet.fi/sippu630/pub/In the photo showing five young men, Gerhard is the second from the right, sitting beside the table. The man sitting behind the table, second from the left, also appears in several other photos as well. In the photo showing three men with pipes, Gerhard is the one standing in the middle. Can you or your wife identify the other men?Seppo.

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Gjest Kjell Knudsen

Hi Seppo.Quite amusing, because your photo 'gerh401e.jpg' is the one I referred to. Anders Edvin Andersen is sitting to the right. Thus the fellow sitting to the left has to be Berge. I don't who he is, and the men in the other photo are unknown to me. My wife is not present at the moment, but I will show her your photo, perhaps she will recognize some of them. After all, she is the one who is born here, I've only lived in Grimstad for 30 years, and thus a new-comer.Kjell

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Gjest Seppo Sippu

Kjell, I believe the third man called Berge in the photo is Peter Berge, born 1880, office employee at a shipping company (kontorist paa skibsrederkontor), son of materialforvalter ved Hasseldalens Jernskibsbyggeri Gustavus P. Berge and wife Olivia Kristine, and living with his parents at Mellem Stor & Vestre Gade 200, Grimstad, according to the 1900 census of Grimstad. By the way, the photo has ''8/1898'' written on the back, indicating that it was taken in August 1898. Thus, Gerhard and Peter were 18 years old.Seppo.

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Gjest Kjell Knudsen

Re: #17. A. E. Andersen was 20 in 1898. My wife didn't recognize any of the five men in the photo. I forgot to say that together with the photo of Berge, Ramsland and Andersen in the old photo album there is a printed Christmas greeting-card saying: 'Glædelig Jul, Godt Nytaar! Gerh. T. Ramsland, Grimstad.' The card is not dated and there is no personal greeting.Kjell

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Gjest Leif Salicath

Re (18). Sanitetskaptein Dr. Lyche må være Carl Octavian Lyche 1842-1919, sønn av proprietær Halvor Heyerdahl Lyche i Drammen. LenkeHan var ugift.

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Gjest Seppo Sippu

Leif, thanks for the information (re: #20). Kjell, I assume that G. M. Tobiassen (re: #14) is identical to jungmand Gustav Magnus Tobiassen, born 1881, mentioned in the 1900 census for Grimstad and that Anders Edvin Andersen is the office employee at Foss brewery with that name and born 1878, mentioned in the 1900 census for Kristiania. It seems to me that A. E. Andersen is the man standing to the right in the photo [url="http://koti.mbnet.fi/sippu630/pub/gjr/gjr002.jpg>http://koti.mbnet.fi/sippu630/pub/gjr/gjr002.jpg(the man standing to the left is Gerh. J. Ramsland, but the man sitting in the middle is unknown). As Mathias P. Molland, the hardware dealer in Grimstad, was Gerhard's closest friend, there must also be pictures of him in Gerhard's album. Among other photos in the album, the ones http://koti.mbnet.fi/sippu630/pub/gerh209.jpg http://koti.mbnet.fi/sippu630/pub/gjr/gjr003.jpg http://koti.mbnet.fi/sippu630/pub/gjr/gjr017.jpg

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Gjest Kjell Knudsen

The information you have about G. M. Tobiassen and A. E. Andersen is correct. I have compared the darkhaired man in your photos with a photo in 'Grimstad bys historie' from 1911. Mathias Molland was a member of the main committe for a national teetotaller meeting held in Grimstad this year. There is a distinct resemblance between them. Perhaps there are partisipants in this debate who has a copy of 'Grimstad bys historie' who would be kind enough to bring the photo on page 617 out to the people, as this is far beyond my skills.Kjell

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Gjest Seppo Sippu

Jarl and Kjell (re: #23 & #22), thank you very much! The time difference between the 1911 photo and the photos in Gerh. J. Ramsland's album is over 10 years, which explains any difference in the appearance. Anyway, I cannot identify the M. P. Molland shown in the 1911 photo with any other person in Gerhard's album.Seppo.

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Gjest Bjarne Birkrem

Seppo, if you are interested, here is a link to the family at Ramsland at the 1801 census: LenkeThe 2 year-old boy called Iver in this list is the grandfather of the sailor born in 1848. He was named after his mother's first husband, Iver Pedersen Ramsland, who had died in 1789, aged 27. After his death, Valborg (the widow) married Jonas Trondsen, who was the son of the legendary Trond Eiriksen Lauperak, who assumed a leading role among the peasants in Bjerkreim in the late 18th century.I am a descendant of Valborg's daughter Ellen, from her first marriage with Iver Pedersen Ramsland. Ellen, in other words, was the half-sister of little Iver, which makes me your fifth cousin.

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