[#80496] Iver Ramsland (* 1848 Arendal), father of Gerh. J. Ramsland (* 1880 Grimstad)?

[Gjest Seppo Sippu]

Bjarne, thanks for the information (re: #25). I have a copy of the Helleland parish history (though right now not at hand), which I remember telling about the two marriages of Valborg. So, you descend from the old Ramsland family of Helleland, while the Ramsland family I descend from (via the illegitimate link) has a different origin. Jonas Trondsen, the widow's new husband, or successor matrimonii, who comes to live in his wife's late husband's estate, would, in a similar case occurring here in Finland, be called (a bit pejoratively) ''puuska'' or ''puusniekka''. What might be the equivalent in Norwegian?The two-year-old Iver Jonassen, born of Valborg's second marriage, I assume, is identical to the 68-year-old chandler (lysestøber) Iver Ramsland who in 1865 lived with his 70-year-old wife Sara Nilsdatter and maid Pernille Bentsdatter at V. 5te Qvartal 453, Kristiansand. Their son Jonas Iverssen Ramsland had moved to Grimstad before that. If I remember it right, Sara was from the Svalestad farm.Seppo.

[Gjest Seppo Sippu]

As said above (#4), Gerh. J. Ramsland was employed by shipbroker and agent Tjøstel Skaregrøm Myhre (born 1871) of Grimstad from 1897 to 1903 (also see #5, #6). In Gerhard's album there is a signed photo of Tjøstel:[url="http://koti.mbnet.fi/sippu630/pub/gjr/gjr009.jpg>http://koti.mbnet.fi/sippu630/pub/gjr/gjr009.jpgand another photo without any identification other than the year ''1899'' written on the back, obviously showing Tjøstel with his wife Helga Jørgensen (born 1875) and children Jørgen (born in Grimstad on 8 July 1898) and Oscar Magnus (born in Grimstad on 29 June 1899):

[Gjest Seppo Sippu]

For his 29th birthday on 29 July 1909, Gerh. J. Ramsland, then living in Kotka, Finland, and employed by Cadenius & Grahn, received a greeting from Grimstad signed by three ladies: Andrea, Aline, and Anna. Browsing the 1900 census for Grimstad it seems that they were the three daughters of office employee at Grimstad freight-insurance association Lars Andreas Marcussen (born 1844 in Dypvåg), namely, Andrea Marcussen (born 1882 in Dypvåg), Aline Marcussen (born 1885 in Dypvåg), and Anna Marcussen (born 1886 in Tvedestrand). In Gerhard's album, there are two undated photos taken by E. Helmer in Grimstad and depicting three young ladies:[url="http://koti.mbnet.fi/sippu630/pub/gjr/gjr047.jpg>http://koti.mbnet.fi/sippu630/pub/gjr/gjr047.jpg

[Gjest Seppo Sippu]

Bjarne, after looking into pages 710--712 of the book ''Hetland skipreide i 450 år. Bind I: Helleland sokn. Gard, ætt og folk'' by Petrus Valand og Olav Heskestad (published in 1971), I have to correct something I wrote in #26.First, Jonas Trondsen (1766-1804), who came to Ramsland in Helleland from Lauperak in Bjerkreim, had already a year before his marriage on 7 March 1791 to Iver Pedersen Ramsland's widow Valborg Asbjørnsdatter acquired one-fourth (namely, 4 1/2 spand) of the farm part (18 spand) of Ramsland that had been owned by the late Iver Pedersen's father Peder Iversen Ramsland (1734-1789). This 4 1/2 -spand part (with an additional 4 spand) had become in possession of the creditors of the decedent's estate in the inheritance partition (skifte) that occurred on 23 March 1790. Jonas Trondsen acquired the said 4 1/2 spand on the same day, and later, on 22 October 1791, the 3 spand inherited by Elen Iversdatter Ramsland, and finally the additional 4 spand, thereby becoming the owner of 11 1/2 spand (while his wife Valborg owned the remaining 6 1/2 spand). Anyway, it seems that the marriage was part of the deal.Second, Valborg Asbjørnsdatter (1768-1840), who had come to Ramsland from Hovland, was married three times. After her second husband Jonas Trondsen had drowned in a river, she was married on 4 June 1806 to Endre Pedersen, who came to Ramsland from Nedre Hetland.Third, looking into the earlier generations of Peder Iverssen Ramsland's (1734-1789) ancestors, I see that Peder's grandfather, also called Peder Iversen, had come to Ramsland from Nedre Hetland, by marrying the widow of a Børild Ramsland.Fourth, Jonas Iversen Ramsland (born on 4 August 1820 at Ramsland, Helleland and died on 5 September 1867 in Arendal), who had moved with his parents Iver Jonassen Ramsland (1798-1884) and Sara Nilsdatter from Ramsland in Helleland to Kristiansand, moved from there to Arendal, not to Grimstad. Seppo.

[Gjest Per Holte Rosenkilde]

I believe, given Birte Cathrine's background, the narrative from 'Helland sogn' may be right, that Jonas Iversen Ramsland moved from Kristiansand to Grimstad, and that he married there before the couple moved on to Arendal.However, since the marriage records from Fjære for that period are lost, there is no way to confirm it.Per

[Gjest Seppo Sippu]

Per (re: #30), true, Jonas Iversen Ramsland's wife Birthe Cathrine Larsen was born on 1 September 1823 in Landvik parish (very near Grimstad I understand), but the Helleland parish history on page 712 only states that (the father) Iver Jonassen Ramsland was a merchant (kjøpman) in Kristiansand and had wife Sara Nilsdatter Svalestad and three children. It is also true that on the same page it is said that Iver's brother Trond was a tanner (garver) in Grimstad. This Trond Jonassen Ramsland's family is described in Landgraff's Grimstadslægter (see Jarl's posting at #11). When I first gained access to Landgraff's book some years ago, I thought that my grandfather Gerhard was Trond Jonassen's descendant, until I found that also Trond's brother's son was a tanner and, above all, had a son named Iver. It is possible that Jonas started his career as an apprentice of his uncle in Grimstad. My writing (in #26) that Jonas moved from Kristiansand to Grimstad was just a slip of memory and not based on any evidence.Seppo.

[Gjest Seppo Sippu]

In Grimstad on 26 December 1878 was born and on 19 January 1879 was christened John Bernhard, a son of skipper (skibsfører) Arnt Oluf Ramsland and wife Julie née Just (see Grimstad ministerialbok 1869-1881 A 1, fødte og døpte 1879, page 88, entry 5/1879). One of the witnesses for the christening was skipper (skibsfører) Iver Ramsland! As Per Holte Rosenkilde has observed in #9, Arend Oluf Ramsland was a brother of Iver Ramsland who in the 1865 Arendal census is listed as a sailor.This is not important, but, for the sake of completeness, I would like to know who the other witnesses for the christening were. I cannot decypher the handwriting completely: Madam Marte Tergesen Buxevolden [?], Jomfru Sophie Just, Skibsbygmester Ole Just, Skibsfører Peder Andersen Hisnes [?].Although sailors can appear almost anywhere anytime, it is worth noting that skipper Iver Ramsland thus happened to be in the Grimstad area at the time of the christening of his brother's son in early 1879. He must also have been around in the fall of the same year, when generating his son Gerhard, born in July 1880.I am still wondering about the information given in the 1900 United States census for the 33rd ward, Chicago, Hyde Park towship, Cook county, Illinois, dated 5 June 1900: One of four boarders in the household of electrician John V. Nilsen is Iver Ramsland, white, male, born in March [sic!] 1848 in Norway of parents born in Norway, immigrated to the United States in 1875 [sic!], been in the United States for 25 years [sic!], naturalized, timekeeper in carshop, can read, can write, can speak English.It may very well be true that Iver, as a sailor on an ocean liner, may have been to the USA first time in 1875, but I am not at all convinced that he actually immigrated there that early. The record and index of persons registered and of poll lists of voters for the city of Chicago, Northern district of Illinois, 1890, contains the following information on page 268:Congressional District: 2. Ward: 10. Precinct: 8. Residence: 768 W[est] 22nd Str[eet]. Name: Ramsland Iver. Nativity: Norway. Color: White. Terms of Residence: Precinct: 3 mos; County: 10 yrs; State: 10 yrs. Naturalized: yes. Date of Papers: Aug. 27, 1889. Court: Circuit Court of Cook Co. Qualified Voter: yes. Date of Application to be Registered: Mar 15, 1889. Voted: yes. Number of Ballot: 208.So this Iver Ramsland resided in Cook county, Illinois from about 1880 to at least 1890 and in precinct 8 of the city of Chicago for the last 3 months in 1890, and was naturalized as a United States citizen on August 27, 1889 by the circuit court of Cook county. As he is still residing in Chicago in 1900, he probably has been there all along (until at least 1900), except for the first four or five years after his alleged immigration in 1875 and, of course, occasional trips to Europe. I am inclined to believe that Iver did not immigrate to the USA until 1879--80, even though the above record, of course, only implies that the immigration occurred no later than 1880.The last traces of Iver I have found thus far are that a clerk Iver Ramsland, aged 61, United States citizen, born in Arendal, Norway was a passenger of a ship sailing from Kristiansand on 2 October 1909 to New York and settled in Paris, Edgar county, Illinois, where he still lived at the time the 1910 US census was taken.Seppo.

[Gjest Seppo Sippu]

This adds to #4, #7 and #9.Mathilde Lovise Ramsland, born in Grimstad on 27 May 1886 to skibsfører Arent Oluf Ramsland and Julie Just, travelled to the USA on S/S Kristianiafjord sailing from Kristansand on 19 November 1913 and arriving at the port of New York on 2 December. The ship manifest found among the Ellis Island records gives 'maid' as her occupation, her mother Julie Ramsland in Grimstad as her nearest relative, and Brooklyn, New York as her final destination, where she was going to join her friend Mrs. Sofie Ziener at 4002 -- 6th Avenue.Mathilde stayed in the USA until 1918, when she returned to Norway, but travelled again to the USA in 1919, at that time already married to Ole Christian Salvesen: Housewife Mathilde Salvesen, 33, from Grimstad, was a passenger on S/S Bergensfjord sailing from Kristiania on 6 September 1919 and arriving at the port of New York on September 16. Again she named her mother Julie Ramsland in Grimstad as her nearest relative in Norway, but now she was going to join her husband Ole Christian Salvesen living at 825 -- 42nd Street, Brooklyn. The ship manifest also states that she had been in the USA before, namely 1913-1918. Obviously the couple was married in the USA.Ole Christian Salvesen was born at Varaasvolden, Fjære, on 7 August 1877 to skibsfører Fredrik Anton Salvesen and Gusta Matilde Gundersen. In the 1900 census for Grimstad, Ole is listed with his (widowed) father at Storgate 287, Grimstad. He was then a mate (styrmand) at sea. Seaman Ole Chr. Salvesen, 32, from Grimstad was a passenger on S/S Oscar II sailing from Kristiansand on 8 May 1909 and arriving at the port of New York on 18 May. He named his sister E[lisabeth] Salvesen from Grimstad as his nearest relative and the city of New York as his final destination, where he was going to join his cousin Aanon Olsen at 858 Tanton Avenue, Bronx. This was his first visit to the USA.Gerh. J. Ramsland's cousin Mathilde Salvesen is---besides his mother Grete---his only Norwegian relative whom I ever heard named in discussions with his widow and children.Seppo.

[Gjest Seppo Sippu]

Again it appears that I have not done my homework properly, re: #32. When browsing the Grimstad parish clerk's book 1881-1922 B 1, I encountered on page 306 the following entry (male decedent n:o 14/1910):On 6 December 1910 died and on 12 December 1910 was buried former shipmaster Iver Ramsland from Grimstad, unmarried, born in Arendal in 1848, died of stomach cancer.So, Iver came from the USA back to Grimstad to die!Seppo.

[Gjest Jarl V. Erichsen]

Hi! I can't give yoy more information pt, but it is nice to watch you finding your family that lived here in Grimstad. - Jarl -

[Gjest Seppo Sippu]

Jarl:Thanks to Per Holte Rosenkilde, I now have most complete and well-documented ancestries of Gerh. J. Ramsland's both grandmothers. Also, information about the earlier generations of Gerhard's paternal grandfather's family, the Ramslands, can be found in the bygdebøker of Helleland and Bjerkreim parishes of Rogaland, and those of Gerhard's maternal grandfather from the bygdebok of Konsmo parish in Vest-Agder.However, I would be most interested in obtaining more information about the seaman's careers of the Ramslands in Grimstad. In #6, Per Holte Rosenkilde mentions a database created by Aust-Agder-arkivet of sailing ships from the towns of Aust-Agder. How can this database be accessed?By the way, it seems that it is always worth now and then to google for your names of genealogical interest. Quite unexpectedly, googling for 'Gerh. J. Ramsland' produced a link to page[url="http://www.sjohistorie.no/skip/l/leetch__aar_1887>http://www.sjohistorie.no/skip/l/leetch__aar_1887that shows a history of a brig 'Leetch', build by W. H. & J. Rourk, St. Martins, New Brunswick in 1873 and originally called 'Little Harry'. In 1920 this ship was owned by Gerh. J. Ramsland, Kotka, Finland.In 1918, Gerhard had resigned from his position as signing clerk (prokurist) at Cadenius & Grahn, the shipbrokers in Kotka, and founded an enterprise of his own, 'Ramsland & Co.' By a decision dated 14 January 1918, the governor of the province of Viipuri (Viborg) had granted Gerhard permission to carry on a shipping and agency business with that name. The enterprise was not successful, and already in 1922 Gerhard had entered the employment of Jøns Bruhn, one of the first shipbrokers in Kotka (cf. http://www.steveco.fi/en/, 'About Steveco').The roll of seamen at the site

[Gjest Seppo Sippu]

In Grimstad on 17 December 1910, five days after the funeral of his brother Iver Ramsland, Sichard Andreas Adolf Ramsland (see #1) signed a testament in which he, having no direct heirs, declares his last will to be that his sister Gunda Thalette Ramsland (see #9) shall get, undivided and without the interference of inheritance division law, everything he leaves behind after his death, be it cash assets, real or movable property. The testament was witnessed by G. G. Terland and A. Gundersen. After Sichard A. Ramsland, divorced, had died in Chicago, Cook county, Illinois on 8 December 1917, the testament was probated at an extra session of the town court of Grimstad on 24 May 1918 (see Byfogdens i Grimstad pantebok 1915-21 n:o 9, pages 230v-231, case n:o 3).Seppo.

[Gjest Seppo Sippu]

The 1910 census for Grimstad gives 1880 (cf. #32) as the year Iver Ramsland emigrated to the USA: LenkeIver and his brother Sichard were staying with their sister Gunda Ramsland in her house at Vestregate 301, Grimstad.