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Request for help locating great-grandfather in Larvik in mid-1800s


Louise Ober

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The U.S., Obituary Collection, 1930-Current - Link Ancestry

Name: Raymond H. Brown
Death Age: 68
Birth Date: 20 Feb 1945
Residence Place: Midlothian, Illinois
Death Date: 11 Apr 2013
Death Place: Midlothian, Illinois

 

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1 hour ago, Louise Ober said:

So that leaves the autosomal DNA test, which doesn't require son-to-son lineage, is that right?

 

That is correct. The interpretation of the results of an Autosomal test are somewhat more complex than the Y-DNA that is why it is worth the effort to find a male line candidate. 

 

It would appear from the long and winding road Egil took us on that there may be three children  of Raymond H Brown who is the son of Raymon G Brown. Might be quite a task find them?

 

The obit posted just above by Egil lists Ramond H Brown as the adoring father of Eric Chris and Sara. Also a list of grandchildren of Ramond H Brown are lsited. 

 

You may need a two prong approach here. Spend some time looking for that male candidate but embark on the Autosomal path as well. 

 

1950 Census 

 

https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/223200049:62308

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Anton Hagelee
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1 time siden, Louise Ober skrev:

The problem is I'm not sure there is any son-to-son-to-son ancestry that extends to the present.

 

Turns out there is 😊 - read Raymond H Brown's OBIT from 2013.

 

  • William H Brown
    • Herbert E Brown
      • Raymond G Brown
        • Raymond H Brown
          • Sons & grandsons

 

Edited by Egil Johannessen
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I agree with Egil. Here is the Family Tree on Ancestry.com for Ramond H Brown. Shows potential living wife and three children. 

 

https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/113810188/person/262151047501/facts

 

Based on the obit posted by Egil, I would think the children are the Eric, Chris and Sara. 

 

The tree gives a Cindy Hinebeck living in Michigan. She seems to be a regular user of Ancestry so could be contacted through Ancestry PM system 

 

There are a total of four trees for Ramnd H Brown including the one listed above. Two of them are Private Trees but since you are a Ancestry member you can contact them as well. 

 

https://www.ancestry.com/search/categories/42/?name=Raymond+H._BROWN&birth=1945&death=2013_midlothian-cook-illinois-usa_36892&defaultFacets=PRIMARY_YEAR.PRIMARY_NPLACE&father=Raymond+Gordon_BROWN&gender=m&mother=Cecilia+Violet_McCAULEY&searchType=t&treePerson=113810188_262151047501

 

 

Edited by Anton Hagelee
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3 hours ago, Louise Ober said:

 

So that leaves the autosomal DNA test, which doesn't require son-to-son lineage, is that right?

 

The reason the autosomal DNA test has some appeal at present is that it is something that you can do now. It is going to be worthwhile to try and find that male relative with a male family line back to the Bruun family but it may take some time and effort. In the meantime you can embark on the autosomal route. 

 

Here are some comments from the internet that cover autosomal DNA testing.

 

Everyone in your family can take an autosomal DNA test, regardless of age and gender. The test  provides information about your current relatives and recent genetic history. It is also an accurate way of finding new members from older generations. It is also helpful if the people being compared are not more than about 5 to 6 generations from the person of interest. An autosomal DNA test is a measurement of your autosomal chromosomes. Everyone (with rare exceptions) is born with a set of 23 pairs of chromosomes. We inherit half from our mother and the other half from our father. Thus you get a lot of information above and beyond what you are seeking when you get the test results. The difficult part is sorting out what information is of value. The comparisons between people is accomplished by comparing the number of common DNA segments and the length of these segments. The larger the number of common DNA segments and the longer these common segments the more the two people are related. The unit of measurement is a centimorgan (abbreviated as “cM”).

 

So you see stuff like Shared DNA 26.3% (1861 cM), Shared Segments 43 and Longest Segment  145 cM. 

 

It is more complicated that that but a expert is probably needed to explain how that translates to a match. 

 

Once you get the test results you will be past my area of expertise. However you have some real advantages since you are trying to determine if you have some relationship with Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun. Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun has as far as we know six people who are closely related to him who have autosomal test results and whose names we know from the Geni.com tree. The most important of those is probably David Witterberg Howden who is a DNA genealogy expert and a contributor to this forum. His mother is also one of the people on the Autosomal list and probably the link to the Bruun family. I feel fairly confident that we can call upon him to guide the analysis results. 

 

Digest this for a little and see how you feel. I know it is a lot to grasp, which is why the Y-DNA route is so much simpler. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Anton Hagelee
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I studied DNA (no expert)

 

I direct this to the Norwegians so that they don't waste their time, and to enlighten then a bit on DNA

 

Here is the issue at hand:

 

The DNA of 2 or more of William Brown's descendants would be compared. Obviously, William Brown did not sibmit his DNA. The potential submitters of DNA for comparison would be in the generation of 4th-cousins, or so.

 

Problem: it is estimated that 50% of 4th-cousins do not share any DNA. Finding no DNA match would not necessarily conclude no DNA connection.

 

Centimorgans (segments and lengths) are converted into Percentage of Shared DNA. This is converted into the potential relationship between the 2 submitters. The DNA results would not conclude only one relationship. There would be a few possibilites. THe 2 submitters could compare their tree to the other's tree and match the related generation.

 

The results from the company that did the testing will only approximate the relationship. It will not take into consideration possible half-cousins

 

This is enough to digest.

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4. cousins will most likely share autosomal DNA. Average 35cM (0-139).

Edited by Inger Karin Haarbye
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13 minutes ago, Inger Karin Haarbye said:

4. cousins will most likely share autosomal DNA. Average 35cM (0-139).

Is that based on one source?

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35 cM is an iinsufficient amount to get an accurate reading. The possibilities would be 4th, 5th, 6th cousins, or something else

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it is useful to have a link to the source. This looks like the source for 35 cM ( 0-139)

 

Shared-cM-Project-Relationship-Chart.png

 

But not does illustrated your point that the number drops to a potential 0 very quickly. 

 

Most likely the reason that most sites that do autosomal testing recommend that you test the oldest people available and test as many people as possible. 

 

 

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22 minutter siden, Richard Olsen skrev:

Here is another source

 

Fourth cousins (0- 27 cMs, average 21 cMs)

 

Source?

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9 minutes ago, Inger Karin Haarbye said:

ttps://dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4

Thanks for posting the 2 links. They support my statements.

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16 minutes ago, Richard Olsen said:

Thanks for posting the 2 links. They support my statements.

 

Yes they do, and thus my support for finding a male line relative and getting Y-DNA analysis.

 

And if you are going to do a autosomal DNA analysis, maximize your chances by using results from as many members of the target family as you can obtain. And using the tools such as DNA Painter to obtain the best results as you can from the data you have gathered. It also helps to use a DNA expert to aid the analysis.

 

My main goal in this testing is to see if one can rule out the connection to the Brunn family, and any other information would be a plus. 

 

 

Edited by Anton Hagelee
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4 minutes ago, Anton Hagelee said:

And if you are going to do a autosomal DNA analysis, maximize your chances by using results from as many members of the target family as you can obtain. And using the tools such as DNA Painter to obtain the best results as you can from the data you have gathered. It also helps to use a DNA expert to aid the analysis

 

I agree, however, caution should be used when analyzing multiple donors. The results would vary broadly.

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5 minutes ago, Richard Olsen said:

I agree, however, caution should be used when analyzing multiple donors. The results would vary broadly.

 

You have some interesting comments on the topic, however your reluctance to provide links to your sources makes it more difficult than necessary to utilize the information you provide. 

 

I wonder if you have an aversion to providing links or just too busy to bother to provide them. 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Anton Hagelee said:

You have some interesting comments on the topic, however your reluctance to provide links to your sources makes it more difficult than necessary to utilize the information you provide. 

 

I wonder if you have an aversion to providing links or just too busy to bother to provide them. 

 

As stated, I studied DNA. I am not doing a google search to find the information. The information is from my personal writings. I do not depend on other sources.

 

Here is an important observation to make when searching and analyzing data....

 

Look for collaboration, and not copying (some sources simple copied information from other sources)

Edited by Richard Olsen
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55 minutes ago, Richard Olsen said:

Here is another source

 

Fourth cousins (0- 27 cMs, average 21 cMs)

 

I am a little confused. This information if from your "personal writings"

 

 

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1 minute ago, Anton Hagelee said:

I am a little confused. This information if from your "personal writings"

 

Sorry for the confusion. I went along with Inger and posted another source from the internet to show her that she should not depend on a source.

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3. cousins will share even more DNA. It is still a possibility that they don't share DNA. In the Hans Hansen case, possible  3. cousins seems to be available for DNA, as far as I can understand. Of course, if no DNA test is done, it is a 100%  for not having matches (!). 
In the Henrik Wilhelm Bruun case (if a son out of wedlock exist), an Y-DNA test would give valuable information.
I'm not sure why someone here is trying to stop others trying to help.
 

Edited by Inger Karin Haarbye
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3 minutes ago, Richard Olsen said:

Sorry for the confusion. I went along with Inger and posted another source from the internet to show her that she should not depend on a source.

 

I am even more confused now. Is the information on the Fourth Cousins from your own research that you have in your personal files or from some other internet site but a different one than Inger used?

 

 

Edited by Anton Hagelee
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2 minutes ago, Anton Hagelee said:

I am even more confused now. Is the information on the Fourth Cousins from your own research that you have in your personal files or from some other internet site but a different one than Inger used/

 

I'm not sure what is confusing you, but I will make one more attempt to explain it.

 

It is irrelevant whether or not the fourth cousin comment is from my research or an internet source.

 

Inger commented about the 35 cMs....I simply made an attempt to show Inger that there are various internet sources that have different information. Bias will play a role in what information the person accepts.

 

As for my personal writings: low numbers of cMs reveals multiple possibilities to the relation of the compared individuals. Also, no DNA company can give an exact relationship to any comparison. The companies give the "best guess"

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